So what’s wrong with the toy companies getting that profit instead of vendors or other insiders who happened to be at the convention?

Absolutely nothing. Manufacturers are free to do with their products anything they choose, which is why I said I have a “request” for those companies. I certainly never hinted at there being any “right” or “wrong” way of doing so, but rather my preferred way.

Do you really not see that that was exactly what you were doing in your initial post!?!

If that’s what you got from reading the post, then you clearly misunderstood it. I was referring to a method of selling action figures, of making them available, not any particular way of collecting them.

And for the record, I did not mean to suggest that they are hard and fast groups (or even the only groups) that collectors fall into, without any gray area. The point of your initial post, after cutting through the list of exclusive you either have or wanted, seemed to be that exclusive figures should be preserved as special rewards for folks who go to conventions. My response is that is one opinion, and one I disagree with almost entirely.

When you answered some of the complaints that convention exclusives merely stoke the secondary market, you said, among other things: “what’s wrong with a little profit?” Agreed. No problem there. So what’s wrong with the toy companies getting that profit instead of vendors or other insiders who happened to be at the convention? Because exclusive figs have almost always been available after the show, the argument ultimately falls back on semantics: an item is an “exclusive” because the manufacturer only sold it at one place for a limited period of time (and is therefore held more dear by a certain number of collectors). What is the functional difference between a separate retailer buying up remaining cases and offering them for sale, and Mattel selling them online after the fact? How about if toy companies changed their language to something like “SDCC limited edition” instead of “exclusive?” Would that satisfy you? Probably not, because the root problem is that making items more available means you feel less rewarded, less special.

Also for the record, I have no problem with the free market. I do have a problem with obnoxious bores who justify their advantage by chalking it up to the free market and then whining when the system changes a bit and they lose that advantage.

You just wrote: “Some collectors seem determined to make their way of enjoying a hobby come across as better, the way a true collector does things. I’ve never quite understood that.” Jesus tap-dancing Christ! Do you really not see that that was exactly what you were doing in your initial post!?!

I might add that this whole dialogue has reminded me of people I used to be acquainted with (and thankfully no longer know). These guys were libertarians; both were a few years into masters degrees everyone around them knew they were never going to finish; elicited rolled eyes whenever they walked into a room; and ‘won’ arguments by going in circles until their ‘friends’ stared off into space or wandered away muttering “whatever…” Does any of that sound familiar?

So go ahead and pick this apart and add whatever snarky comments you want. I doubt that I’ll waste any more time revisiting this. I’m now strolling away, shaking my head and saying “whatever you say, man…”

From that standpoint, some folks seem to take the somewhat absurd steps of citing socio-economic theory to back up their argument.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

and therefore enjoyed more than a regular toy

Not necessarily. I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but I personally enjoy exclusives in addition to basic retail releases. In fact, none of the exclusives, variants, or otherwise “hard to find” figures in my collection are among my favorites. I’m not sure why some people feel compelled to draw a line in the sand when it comes to toy collecting. For some people, it’s opening the toys. For others, it’s graded figures. And sometimes, it’s anything that can’t be had for the same price as a regular retail release. “You enjoy this, so have fun with it,” is something they never say. Some collectors seem determined to make their way of enjoying a hobby come across as better, the way a true collector does things. I’ve never quite understood that.

I think it comes back to the two basic approaches toward toy collecting. It would appear that Mr. Edwards values the experience of finding items, and attaches special significance to them. While I mostly enjoy the toys for what they are as objects.

Why are there two approaches? Why can’t both aspects of collecting be enjoyed by the same person? Perhaps some people really are too “basic” for that, but I have fun with many facets of this hobby.

That’s how the free market works.

Much to your chagrin, I’m sure.

It seems to me there at two basic and somewhat contradictory attitudes toward toy collecting that are at play here: one favors enjoying the toys themselves, and the other favors the hunt. From that standpoint, some folks seem to take the somewhat absurd steps of citing socio-economic theory to back up their argument.

I’d also like to point out that relying on personal anecdotes and opinions as evidence is rather weak. I don’t really care if a silver Vader is “special” to Mr. Edwards (and therefore enjoyed more than a regular toy) — just as I’m sure he would not care that many of the toys in my collection that I most enjoy were easily obtained. I think it comes back to the two basic approaches toward toy collecting. It would appear that Mr. Edwards values the experience of finding items, and attaches special significance to them. While I mostly enjoy the toys for what they are as objects.

By the way: To those of you who claim that for you – or someone you know – a major draw for going to a convention is access to the “exclusive” swag: even if that is true, I believe you are in a tiny, tiny minority of convention attendees.

If you couldn’t tell, I don’t particularly care for convention exclusives. As for why- I agree with the arguments that Poe Ghostal eloquently made, and I won’t make any effort to argue them again here. But I will reiterate that convention exclusives are an outdated concept. The collecting market is not what it was ten – or even just five years ago. There are far more collectors out there, and far more sources of information about toys. The dynamics of supply and demand are a hell of a lot different than they used to be. While I can’t deny the simple logic that a third party has the right to make a profit by reselling convention exclusives, I also think a toy company has every right to cut-off those speculators and claim that market for themselves. I’m not sure how someone could rely so heavily on free market loving arguments and still be opposed to that.

I’m sorry that certain toys are not as special as they had been for some people. Sometimes it sucks when things change. But hey- if it is too easy now, and you aren’t enjoying convention figures – don’t buy them! That way, if the majority of people feel as you do, they won’t sell! Then the toy companies will see the error of their ways and go back to making extra special shiny and rare treats for you – so you can know that you are one of the lucky few to have them. That’s how the free market works.

Most companies offer up variants as exclusives. Like the Chrome Vader mentioned by Jon.
However, would he be singing the same tune if DARTH VADER himself was never sold to the masses and only made available to some country he can’t get to.

Palisades used to offer Muppet Exclusives at Cons which were awesome, but not essential to a completist. I never complained about those and bought them otherwise. Gleek was the simply wrong choice because it creates a hole in the Zan and Jayna set.

Chrome Vader? Pimp Daddy Destro? Indiana Jones Kermit? None of those are essentials but they are cool exclusives nonetheless.

enjoy buying toys at hundreds of times what they cost.

oh, so it’s “fair” that a jackass can go and buy every single toy available, in an entire geographical area, just to sell them on ebay at 300% markups?

Absolutely. Not only is everyone in this country free to buy low and sell high, but it is the most fundamental basis of the American economy.

i suppose it’s also “fair” if i take a tire iron to his face and give children those toys for free.

I find it disturbing that anything as trivial as toys would even put such a thought into an individual’s mind. The idea that criminal acts of violence are comparable to buying a toy and reselling it for a profit is not worth discussing. Have a nice weekend.

i suppose it’s also “fair” if i take a tire iron to his face and give children those toys for free.

it’s a problem when I can’t even go to wal-mart and get toys because some jerk has come and bought all of them at all the stores in the area, just to sell them on ebay. that’s not fair and it’s not right. i’d love to see you justify that.

No need to “justify” anything. Once someone buys merchandise, he/she is free to use it, store it, burn it, or resell it. It’s “not fair” that someone else who wanted something got to it before you did? His/her reasons for wanting it are irrelevant. All that matters is that someone else beat you to it, so you’ll have to look elsewhere. First-come, first-served. I don’t disagree with your second point, and said so a couple of comments above yours.

I do agree on con exclusives, however. but, once the con is over they should put the remaining stock online for those who couldn’t attend. that way, the con goers get their cake, and the remaining stock doesn’t get melted down/sit in a warehouse for eternity.

I think the best sort of convention exclusive are cool, desirable repaints something like the NYCC variant Mr. Freeze from last year. It’s a great thing for collectors to have, but those who can’t get it don’t feel like their collection is incomplete.

There’s a slight distinction I want to make, too. I have much less of a problem with convention exclusives that are just repaints or non-canonical gimmicks, like silver Darth Vaders or Jorg Sacul.

But unique characters, like the Wonder Twins & Gleek and He-Ro, should definitely be offered to those who can’t go to the convention. They’re great toys that go above and beyond the “normal” figures, and to prevent the majority of collectors from being able to get them seems, at best, a poor business decision. If I couldn’t get He-Ro, I would definitely see that as a huge, gaping hole in my MOTUC collection, and would consider dropping the line and not spending $30 a month on a toy line whose manufacturer made an awesome figure that most fans weren’t able to get.

The biggest difference between the old days and now–and I mention this in my piece–is that we now live in the age of the Internet. Ten or fifteen years ago, if there was a bonus figure at a convention, the majority of collectors might not even be aware of the toy’s existence, so a toy company could get away with offering this nice little “bonus” for those who went to the convention.

Now, however, any collector can instantly know everything about a toy line via the Internet, and many of them are completists. So rather than being an added bonus for the few people who can afford to go to the convention, an exclusive figure–even just an accessory, like Gleek–becomes a hole in the collection of countless others.

We’re not even dealing with real market value anymore. An average person cannot get an accurate read on what the “market is”. The advent of eBay has resulted in the proliferation of every slob on the street thinking they can make a profit on toys. While the market of toys is certainly more than a hobby, it’s not meant to be a business for everyone.

The “average person” needs only to search eBay using the completed listings feature. I have no sympathy for anyone who can’t be bothered to do a little research before making a purchase. If someone just dives right into a transaction without the small modicum of investigation required to determine an item’s value, that’s his/her problem. The “market” is far simpler these days than it was prior to the popularity of eBay, precisely because there is a public record of what was bought and sold and for how much. And what makes you think it’s your place to determine who is or is not “meant” to be in the business of toys?

Go on eBay right now and look at the DOZENS of unsold, unbid on DC Infinite Heroes action figures. These aren’t regular merchandisers, toy shops, etc. These are gougers, manipulators, and scalpers.

Applying the word “gouging” to toy collecting is silly. Once again, I have no issue with “scalpers”. Can they potentially create an inconvenience for me? Sure, but it’s nothing more than that, and it’s certainly no reason to get worked up into a fit. Personally, I don’t enjoy spending my time in Big Box retailers. A “scalper” that can save me from having to drive all over Suburbia in search of a new release and deliver the goods straight to my door is providing a valuable service. There’s no grand deception taking place on eBay, and deep down, I don’t think it’s really the “scalpers” that bother some collectors so much.

Moreover, I do feel entitled to something as a large purchaser of a certain product line. You can bet your last dollar I feel more entitled to the SDCC exclusive Anti-Monitor than you do, if I bought $200-$300 worth of that toyline and you bought none.

You feel “entitled” to the Comic-Con exclusive, even though you’re not going to Comic-Con. Well, that’s the very problem right there, and that’s part of why I would like to see Mattel, Hasbro, and all other toy manufacturers stop offering convention exclusives outside of the convention. Collectors need to be reminded that they’re not entitled to these items.

Why do you think businesses have loyalty clubs, frequent flyer miles, etc? Businesses understand and appreciate the concept or customer appreciation and retention, but for some reason you don’t?

That’s not the same thing as saying, “I bought this much stuff, so I’m entitled to something for free.” I’m driving my fourth Honda, but I don’t feel like I deserve a free car for it. Yes, I’ve spent thousands of dollars on their brand over the years, but that doesn’t mean I’m entitled to anything other than the good cars I received in exchange for my money.

What I can’t agree with, and what dumbfounds me on your part, is why a promotion set up by Mattel to reward it’s Frequent Customer base can allowed to be ruined by a “hey, bring us points…or just give us $10″ deal at SDCC. It’s not right, any way you slice it.

Of course it’s “right”. It’s Mattel’s promotion, and they can implement it in any way they choose. They always intended to allow collectors to redeem those points at SDCC, and they made that announcement months ago. Mattel is under no obligation to conduct their business on your terms or check with you to ensure their stategies will fit into your schedule. With all the time you’ve spent bemoaning the redemption process, have you bothered to use the internet for something more constructive? Like trying to find someone who doesn’t collect DC Infinite Heroes, but will be standing in Mattel’s line for exclusives? Better yet, have you seen how much people have been getting for large lots of Anti-Monitor points on eBay? You could have sold yours and made more than enough to get your hands on the exclusive figure. The internet is good for more than just complaining about how unfair everything is.

We’re not even dealing with real market value anymore. An average person cannot get an accurate read on what the “market is”. The advent of eBay has resulted in the proliferation of every slob on the street thinking they can make a profit on toys. While the market of toys is certainly more than a hobby, it’s not meant to be a business for everyone.

The people that I have issue with at conventions are the same people who will literally scoop up every single toy in every single store within a 20 mile radius of their home. Then they’ll go on eBay, lie about its rarity and mislead averages consumers who went to Wal-mart, Target, etc to find an empty shelf, into paying more for the item because they’re manipulated into believing it legitimately is rare.

Go on eBay right now and look at the DOZENS of unsold, unbid on DC Infinite Heroes action figures. These aren’t regular merchandisers, toy shops, etc. These are gougers, manipulators, and scalpers.

Moreover, I do feel entitled to something as a large purchaser of a certain product line. You can bet your last dollar I feel more entitled to the SDCC exclusive Anti-Monitor than you do, if I bought $200-$300 worth of that toyline and you bought none.

Why do you think businesses have loyalty clubs, frequent flyer miles, etc? Businesses understand and appreciate the concept or customer appreciation and retention, but for some reason you don’t?

I have over 200 anti-monitor points, but since I can’t go to SDCC, they are useless. Why? Betty Crocker, Kenner, and a long list of others have always made sure their point holders are appreciated and rewarded equally, not just for whoever shows up at the right date and time.

I remember mailing away my points to Kenner in the 80′s for a Clark Kent 4 inch. Why can’t Mattel offer the same thing 20 years later?

If you want to support Comic Con exclusives, I can understand your side despite disagreeing. What I can’t agree with, and what dumbfounds me on your part, is why a promotion set up by Mattel to reward it’s Frequent Customer base can allowed to be ruined by a “hey, bring us points…or just give us $10″ deal at SDCC. It’s not right, any way you slice it.

Exclusives are dumb. People defending exclusives are even dumber.

Do you think it’s right that casual collectors like myself have to spend $50 to $100 on ebay for a single “con exclusive figure” just to complete a set?

Sure. Why not? Why should the “casual collector” be exempt from market value? As long as we’re not talking about defective, counterfeit, or bootleg merchandise, I don’t look at the sales of toys as having anything to do with right and wrong. And is the collector still “casual” when he feels compelled to be a completist?

Frankly, even if I had the money and the resources, why would I spend hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars to go to a convention that I otherwise have no interest in?

So don’t go. Save your money and spend a little extra to pick up an exclusive on eBay.

It’s a $5 toy, it’s not a $20 collectible.

Except when people are willing to pay that much for it, then it absolutely is a $20 collectible. What you’re saying is essentially this: “Even though others are willing to spend $20/$50/$100/more for this collectible item, the laws of supply and demand should not apply to me. I should get it for $15/$10/$5/less.” You feel “entitled” (your word) to it. Sorry, but I don’t buy into that.

Do you think it’s right that casual collectors like myself have to spend $50 to $100 on ebay for a single “con exclusive figure” just to complete a set?

I’m not in this to show off my impressive, superior collection to other people. I don’t collect this as an ego boost to make myself feel better.

Frankly, even if I had the money and the resources, why would I spend hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars to go to a convention that I otherwise have no interest in?

I could understand if these toys were something that was exclusive to hobby shops, direct marketers, etc. The DC Infinite Heroes line is in Walmart, Target, and Toys R Us. If 99% to the general public, than 100% of it should be available as far as I’m concerned.

It’s a $5 toy, it’s not a $20 collectible. There’s no reason to manipulate them into something they were not designed to be.

I personally love exclusives like these no matter if they are available on a site like Matty or not, in many cases they allow us to get characters we seldom would otherwise. In 07 they only way we could have gotten a Grundy was as an exclusive, this was before the dawn of Target 6-packs. When the Con was over I found a reasonably priced one and bought it because I wanted it bad enough. I live in VA and am a college student working full time so it’s not like I have the ability to travel across the country just to get an exclusive, but when they hit the secondary market I’m happy to pay a reasonable price for it, because even if they mark it up to twice what they paid it’s still a LOT cheaper than traveling to SDCC. So what’s the big deal about “scalpers?” You either pay what someone who could go asks or you don’t get it because you couldn’t go. Would it be easier for me if Mattel sent their exclusives to me as an absentee for cost? Sure, but it’s not going to happen, so I find an acceptable solution.

The only exclusives I have a problem with are the ones where a MAJOR CHARACTER is made for a certain line and only 100 are made, which precludes almost anybody from getting one. If the Con exclusives go that route I will be very unhappy, but as it is I’m happy to have a chance to get something new and exciting, and every year I always look forward to what the SDCC exclusives will be, so I can’t understand how people let something like this upset them when there are options available. Are they perfect? No, but come on, if you’ve bought pretty much anything from Mattel in the last few years you should be used to that.

I’ll say only this… it took about months of carefull eBay hunting to snag a Grundy at what I considered a reasonable markup. Never did snag the Ray 3 pk exclusive, cause the price never looked “right”.
By comparison, getting Giganta was really a breeze, and was no less satisfying in the end.

I can understand the necessary evil of a retailer exclusive. It’s designed to promote foot traffic to a particular chain. That’s fine. Great for competition.

But what exactly is SDCC competing with? There’s no need for convention exclusives. Having to be at a certain place at a certain time in order to complete my collection has led me to quit collecting certain lines altogether. (That would include Playmates’ last “Star Trek” line and Mattel’s “The Batman” line, for anyone interested.)

If manufacturers need exclusives to drive traffic to their convention booths, debut the product in PACKAGING exclusive to the event. But don’t deny your core consumers the opportunity to complete their collections by retiring the PRODUCT after three or four days of release. Offer it again in different packaging so everyone can be happy.

If we ever hope to have a strong action figure community we will stop support exclusives, and start supporting inclusives. Thank you

There are those of us without either the time, money or connections to get “exclusives” any way other than a website.

My reply to that is to repeat that exclusives, by their very nature, are intended to exclude some people.

I don’t recall him saying that, just that he disagreed with you.

Actually, he didn’t say he “disagreed with” me even once in his post. He said my, “argument has some flaws.” In order for that to be the case, one has to accept the idea that reselling toys for profit is wrong as an absolute. One has to operate under the notion that the secondary market for collectible toys, items that appeal specifically to adults with disposable income, is an inherent evil. It’s silly. Based on his comments, one would also have to misinterpret what I wrote as “complaining” over any particular item’s “lack of availability”.

I understand taking some of the back and forth personally — and “Zauriel” did go after your “name dropping” and etc — but he just disagrees with your argument.

I didn’t take anything he said “personally” at all. I got quite a chuckle out of it, especially when I made it to the “hoarders” crack at the end. He didn’t spend much time disagreeing with my argument, though. He was far more interested in disagreeing with the idea that individuals are free to spend their money or sell their property as they wish.

I guess keeping other figures or accessories exclusive to con is a good compromise, but I don’t see why another non-retail method shouldn’t be considered for offering convention figures.

Because they are, as you said yourself, convention figures.

>But your response is gospel, right?

I don’t recall him saying that, just that he disagreed with you. I understand taking some of the back and forth personally — and “Zauriel” did go after your “name dropping” and etc — but he just disagrees with your argument. And as someone who probably won’t have the resources to get to San Diego this year, so do I. I get why it’s special having certain figures as exclusives to the con, but having the Matty Collector site to get Giganta was worlds easier than trying to get an affordable Grundy on ebay. I guess keeping other figures or accessories exclusive to con is a good compromise, but I don’t see why another non-retail method shouldn’t be considered for offering convention figures.

Have a good day.
John Cage

I. don’t. think. so.

I also don’t think people would have this p1ssed off if, last year, the Savage Land set was only Ka-Zar and Shanna, no Zabu (which was itself a re-use of a GI Joe set Tiger!).

I’m a big ML fan, but I still don’t have the Savage Land set, and am not really bothered by it. Nor am I bothered by the fact I don’t own Fin Fang Foom (which was sold as a set at SDCC last yer) or Red Hulk BAF, because of one thing: The Cost. I even found the new XMO ML 2pks this week, but I’m passing on them on account of the cost as well. $24 for 2 MINOR repaints with one new head each? PASS.

Would that this year’s exclusives were sold at Chicago and NYCC as well, there would be lots less b1tching and moaning, but even a trip from St Louis to Chicago (where I could crash at my sisters, hopefully, and save money spent on a hotel room for a night or two) is out of my budget.

But I digress…

btw – I’d still LOVE to get JLU Grundy, but can live without him. Someone else was kind enough to GIVE me JLU Ray after yet another lament about not having him, despite owning his original mini and majority of his subsequent ongoing. I really appreciated the gesture and Ray is on display with the rest of my JLU.
AND
I did offer to GIVE Dan a Fire/Ice set and more recently, offered up several figures from my own collection that he had stolen from him. Apparently, you got to him first on the former, and several others on the latter.

If someone is attending a convention just to get an exclusive figure then they are going for the wrong reasons. They should be going to enjoy the environment and the interaction with other fans. If they consider a good time to be standing in a line for hours on end on the offchance that they might be able to purchase a figure then they clearly don’t know how to have a good time.

Frankly, I’d do away with exclusives altogether. They are a hassel and turn off fans. I have no problem with a company debuting an item there and then the item goes onto mass release. I have no problem if they want to put a sticker on the package saying these are the first 1000 sets produced and come with this special sticker. I have no problem say the way DST did their Trek exclusives where a retailer has them available first at the con then has them up for sale the week afterwards. I have no problem with doing it like DST did with the Khan or Marlena figures–where if you purchased all the Mirror Mirror or TWoK figures you got a polybagged bonus figure.

My enjoyment comes from having the figures and looking at and displaying them. Playmates was never the same after the 1701 Star Trek debacle and I wonder if this could be the final straw for DCUC collectors who have had to put up with poor distribution, paint applications, mismatched parts, missing BaF pieces, the WalMart wave 5 fiasco etc.

This I agree with. I think increasing the waves to 7 characters and doing more than one wave per quarter is expensive to keep up with.