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 Post subject: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:54 pm 
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So what's your favorite Justice League of America? Or maybe Justice League incarnation like Europe or International? Or perhaps there isn't a team group you have found yet so who would make up your ideal Justice League?

Myself, I'm a huge fan of Grant Morrison. He had said the Justice League should be like the Avengers, DC's heavy hitters on one team. And like my Avengers (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, The Incredible Hulk, Antman/ Wasp and Hawkeye even though he wasn't an original Avenger) when you have Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan has to be Hal! And yes I know Morrison had Kyle but that was because of the time period!) and Martian Manhunter on the team under one banner you have a kick ass team!

I have always felt that once you started getting into secondary characters the team starts to wither and get silly. By the time JLA ended right after Infinite Crisis I thought it was a silly line up.

So what's your team line up?

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Van Statten wrote:
Myself, I'm a huge fan of Grant Morrison. He had said the Justice League should be like the Avengers, DC's heavy hitters on one team.


I just have to stop at this and correct your comment. It is backwards. The Avengers was NEVER a collection of Marvel's heavy hitters until recently. Over 15 years ago, after picking up Avengers 225, I wrote to Marvel and asked them why the Avengers was NOT a collection of Marvel's biggest names, like the Justice League. In short, why were Spiderman and Wolverine NOT on the team. They printed the letter a few issues later and explained that they did not 'fit' on the team. Think of all the money Marvel lost by not featuring their most popular characters in their premiere team book. Until a few years ago, when those 2 were added, the Avengers could not lay claim to that title.

Besides, the Justice League is "The World's Greatest Super-Heroes". The Avengers are merely "Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:57 pm 
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That's a good point Superfriend... but it's strange. I now at the time of Avengers 1 they weren't heavy hitters, just in retrospect do we look at it that way. Another strange point is I don't consider Wolverine and Spider-Man team material. Wolverine is an X-Man to me and nothing more. And Spider-Man, well it's so alien having him as an Avenger.

Once again, it's why asked for what people considered their premiere team. To me, I agree with the answer to your letter. Even though I love the Perez era, Beast on the team just doesn't do it for me either.

I know the Marvel Universe is one big place... but I also like keeping everything segregated. Avengers, X-Men, Main Marvel Universe and if you want to be technical, the Occult end as well.

Although I would call Spider-Man a heavy hitter before Wolverine :)

Hey I'm finicky.

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:07 pm 
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At its core, I want to see both teams centered around the companies best known and best selling characters. History is a good barometer of what people want to see.

Justice League:

Each time the Justice League has veered too far off course, sales have suffered.
JL Detroit. The JLI becoming focused on characters like Civet and the Yazz. The end of the Morrison started group where the team seems to dissolve. The end of McDuffie's run on the most recent series where all the big names have left. Robinson's run of Titans and Outsiders and Superman having to tell us that team was the Justice League.

Giffen showed us the team can work with humor. Morrison and Meltzer showed us that fans like the big names together.

The Core = The Big 5.
Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Flash. That's it. How do I know that? Because no other DC hero can support a solo book long term. There are outcries of JLA fans that Martian Manhunter is not in the current book. He was also not in Meltzers run. Why not? Because despite many thinking he is the "soul" of the team, there are over a dozen years of the Satellite JLA comic where J'onn is not a member and is featured in only 1 flashback story (144) and 2 modern era stories (177-178, 200). Hard to consider his membership vital if he was not on the team for that long. I might fight for Aquaman, but there was a span of 16 issues when I was a teenager where he did not appear.

Morrison showed us an extemly effective JLA without Green Arrow, Hawkman, or any of the other Satellite era members. So none of those are critical either. But Conway, Morrison, Giffen, Kelly and Meltzer all showed us that the team can be expanded beyond the core. Mark Waid reduced the team to 8 heroes. At one point, we were getting single arcs by various writers and the team was down to 6 members. I think the expanded team works better.

As for who is in the expanded lineup, I like to let the writer decide and see where it goes. Morrison gave us Plastic Man. Meltzer corrected an error of my youth and included Black Lightning. McDuffie was leading us toward a team including Hardware and Icon. Robinson gave us a Golden Gorilla.

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Van Statten wrote:
That's a good point Superfriend... but it's strange. I know at the time of Avengers 1 they weren't heavy hitters, just in retrospect do we look at it that way. Another strange point is I don't consider Wolverine and Spider-Man team material. Wolverine is an X-Man to me and nothing more. And Spider-Man, well it's so alien having him as an Avenger. ... Hey I'm finicky.

That is my point. As a DC fan, coming to Marvel, I was beyond surprised that the their big team did not feature their big names. I called them out on it. And 20 years later we have Bendis put them on the team and it sells like hotcakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:31 pm 
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superfriend wrote:
And 20 years later we have Bendis put them on the team and it sells like hotcakes.

Lots of general sales are geographical at best.
New Avengers never sold well in my area. It sold through the first two story arcs but after that around issue 6 or 7 it sort of fizzled and I would have two or three copies on the shelf where I would have to ask my rep if I could get any more. I had just started selling when issue 2 (and I did over order on issue 2 simply because of the terrible twos syndrome at the time) came up for order through diamond. It pissed me off that I missed ordering issue1. By this point I think Marvel was printing to order or so.

By the time it got into the mid teens it was just another book.

I was working in a comic shop part time for my comics when JLA started by the mid 20s it was still a strong sell out book, not till right after DC One Million did it peter back out around issue 25 or so.

Granted this is just one small area in an otherwise global market. I just think 'hot cakes' is relative.

In no way am I trying to discount anything said. If anything I'm impressed and really found your post informative. After all it's our own mileage at best as they like to say around here.

I feel Martian Manhunter for most is the result of Justice League cartoon. For me, it was from Morrison and Waid. Morrison's JLA and Waid's JLA Year One.

My first Justice League of America comic was issue 74 (vol. 1), one of my first silver age books! And I loved it only cause I dug all that Earth I and Earth II stuff!

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:03 pm 
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My teams

Avengers - Thor, Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron Man, Hulk.

Justice League - Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter

If I knew more about Marvel I'd add more but my knowledge there is minuscule compared to DC.


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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:20 pm 
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As an Avengers traditionalist, I'm not a fan of Wolverine and Spider-man being on the team. The Cap I grew up with would have never allowed a killer like Logan anywhere near the team. And Peter, while a great superhero, was never a team player.

Over the past five years, I've gradually accepted Spider-man as Avenger material (he does provide awesome comedy relief). But Wolverine doesn't belong on the team. Neither does Strange, Red Hulk, Protector, Iron Fist, Daredevil, or Luke Cage.

Anyway, back on topic:

Dream Avengers line up:

Iron Man, Thor, Cap, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Woman (Julia) and Vision. Julia's a personal favorite of mine, which is why she makes the cut.

Dream JLU line up:

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern (either Hal or John), Flash (Wally), Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, and Zatanna. Since Superman can pretty much beat anybody on his own, there's no reason for him to be on the team. Batman is a loner and way over-exposed on the comic shelves. My favorite JL story of all time is Waid's Year One revamp of the team. They did just fine without Clark and Bruce.

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:24 am 
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I never quite understood the rationale of establishing Batman as an urban myth in Gotham, yet to the rest of the DCU, he was prominently featuring as a JLA member. Batman is a key component of the JLA, but should only be a member behind the scenes, in a tactical role, much like Oracle was.

The JLA sells more books when featuring Superman and Batman, but not much can be done editorially with the characters. You need the second-stringers and oddballs to make it work.

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:52 pm 
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So who wins Justice League Vs. Avengers?


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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:27 am 
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I honestly can't remember, but it ended up with the two teams banding together to take down the real bad guys. It's actually a really good series. I highly recommend it.

But I'll never forget when Thor's Hammer knocks Superman right on his @$$. Classic moment of total geekasm awesomeness. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Shellhead wrote:
I honestly can't remember, but it ended up with the two teams banding together to take down the real bad guys. It's actually a really good series. I highly recommend it.

But I'll never forget when Thor's Hammer knocks Superman right on his @$$. Classic moment of total geekasm awesomeness. :mrgreen:

No I meant who do you guys think win the battle? I know how the series ended, what's your take on the battle?


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 Post subject: Re: Favorite Justice League/ Avengers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I like the original line-ups of both teams: Justice League for me will always be the team from the first time I read it, back at the beginning of the Silver Age: Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and Green Arrow. I also love the group dynamic of the original Avengers, once the Hulk quit and the team discovered Captain America frozen in the iceberg: Cap, Iron Man, Ant Man, Wasp.

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