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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:29 pm 
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I think superfly-should do a doctoral thesis paper on the subject- I mean you have a good start on it right there... Imagine Dr. Superfly-on your buisness cards... :D


Now for my two cents- I personally dont mind some if the the recent "edginess" decisions-I liked Identity Crisis, except I focus more on the whole Robin growing at the death of his father, However it also starting showing that most villians know how to use their powers more than they ever let them in the past (like the JLU Lex/Flash bodyswitch episode)-I especially like what the did with the Rogues the past couple of years some of the stuff is downright devious...I like the Secret Six (honestly I think thats the line of Edgy we can stay at), but I am also against them dumping the entire universe down the tubes, Gone will be Oracle, Steph, Secret Six, Harley (well the last 3 issues of Gotham City Sirens pretty much killed her character anyway- I understood what they were going for but man it sucked)
I also pick up the occasional older issues-- and Im sorry the 60s and 70s and even mid 80's are more painful to read than anything thats coming out now-- the arts dated (my opinon)and the stories are slow and a little too safe (remember I despise most anything by Jack Kirby)..

Now as far as the toyline goes--THere are many more characters I wanted to see-(but usually no one else did)- but every time we got a Killer Moth or a Kamandi :roll: I figured one of mine will have a chance-
I guess for this situation we do get to blame Mattel for this just the WB licensing dept.-- However I do feel that Mattell is not as upset about this as we are-- they get to go back to the well and do the main 10-15 again (which is enough for 3 waves or a years worth based on their recent showings)- and not have any reason to doubt their character selection choices...

I do agree with the how can we have edgy new figures-- and then claim its for the moms and kids..

My other question is how we were told in many Q& As (as to explain some things away-like how important SInestro Corps Bats was)-- is how they were working really close with the DC comics staff, and all the upcoming projects and they get just as blindsided-?- as it appears once again right hand didnt know what left hand was doing..

This is the same as what hasbro did to the super hero squad line and Galactic Heroes (although that was solely their choice)-- lets dump this style and start some crappy new one.- so we can go back to the beginning again and start with the same 20 characters that will sell for sure and give us a years worth of product before touching the obscure..

THat meaning-- if its the only thing on the shelves someone will buy it (of course with Marvel legends new MSRP being 14.99-- they better learn how to get things made cheaper), because they wont be the only thing on the shelf this time..

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Why do you guys keep assuming that because the MSRP for Marvel legends is 15 that the retailers will sell it for 15? The MSRP for DCUC is 15 too and how is that working out?


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:47 am 
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The Superfly wrote:
Boombot wrote:
All of these complaints make longtime comic book READERS and action figure collectors like myself look bad. I can understand being somewhat hesitant towards the relaunch, as I myself am especially with the news and answers coming out of SDCC. The problem is that most people's concerns, from what I gather, regarding the relaunch are the new costumes, which from most part are minor tweaks. Costume changes should be the least of your concerns. Personally, I'm more worried about how all of this will make sense as a narrative, because you know, that's what comics are but I'll still give it a try.

>All of these complaints make longtime comic book READERS and action figure collectors like myself look bad.
>comic book READERS
>READERS


Since my earlier post regarding the comic history was either beyond your comprehension or ignored outright, let me try to simplify it for you.

It's amusing that you are implying that I don't read the comics. I've been an active consumer of DC product for the better part of 30 years, and have amassed a sizable collection of Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age comics, through treasuries, reprints, and the actual comics themselves. And I've read them all. Every single one. Sure, many of the stories were somewhat silly, but they were also fun. What happened to that? No one was snoogled, or had their families butchered. It may not be realistic, but the DC Universe was always an ideal, an escape. It was always the place you wanted to live in. And there was nothing wrong with that kind of unrealistic innocence in superhero escapism.

But TPTB felt like the 75 years of (admittedly) convoluted DC history needed to be eliminated in order to "reflect today's real-world themes and events".
First, COIE already rebooted the DCU once and that wasn't 75 years ago. That ended in '86. Not to mention, while I consider that the only real hard reboot of the DCU, there are many instances that are considered by the readers to be reboots or have rebooted certain facets. So, this is practically tradition.

DC needs to be I'm not sure how much of a DC reader you are, but I know were a 1990s kid and don't care for much beyond that era's media, as you stated on other threads. And your statement of:
Boombot wrote:
I'm kind of excited for a JLU origin that's exciting and that I can get behind
tells me all I need to know about your opinion and understanding of the history of the DC Universe and the respect you have for the "narrative".

Boombot wrote:
Personally, I'm more worried about how all of this will make sense as a narrative, because you know, that's what comics are

If you actually keep up with the industry

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be condescending, but I'll play along. You should be worried about how this will make sense, as I have yet to see anyone from DC Comics able to explain the timeline of the New 52 books in relation to one another. Even their own creative teams are confused about the plans. This reboot/relaunch could have been an excellent way to gain new readers along with respecting the current fans, but instead DC has decided to jettison the very things that made DC great by attempting to copy 1990s Marvel, complete with Bob Harras running the show and digging up 90s 'talent' like Liefeld and Lobdell.
Well, if you have been keeping up like you claim, then you would know they're not jettisoning everything. As far as I can tell, every major or significant story beat remains. Just how it will work out is the problem.

The reason I said that is the reality is that many people on these boards are not comic readers. They might have been at one time or another but they're first and foremost action figure collectors. They just like the quality of the line and the characters. It's easy to compile a list of some of the biggest and most controversial moments that probably got some mainstream press coverage.


It pains me to see this DCnU idea almost universally panned by fans and industry professionals alike. I want DC to succeed. I want this to be a success. But I also am not blind to the foolish choices and branding mistakes being made by WB and DC, simply to fulfill a corporate agenda. Why should I play along with a fake smile and a cheery attitude, if I am unhappy about the direction DC is taking my beloved characters? Apparently I should just cease because it makes you uncomfortable, but as a consumer, I have a right to voice my opinion. An opinion, by the way, that is shared by dozens of others in the industry. If you actually kept up with the industry, I would not need to be explaining all this.
I do keep up with the industry. The only person in the industry I've heard to pan this was Todd McFarlane and that was yesterday. I wouldn't make him the authority on the situation.

So DC isn't going for 'edgy'? You do realize that an entire imprint under the DCnU is called 'DC EDGE'?
Uh, that's in reference to the edge of the DCU, as in periphery. It's not called DC Edgy.

But it must be me, right? Apparently I'm the only one calling out DC's feeble attempt at being 'kewl' and 'extreme' and 'edgy'.
Nobody actually uses 'kewl' and no one has used 'extreme' in reference to the relaunch. Quit making stuff up.

"For as long as I’ve known him, Dan Didio has believed the key to a resurgent DC is reclaiming all the readers the commercial medium lost in the 90s"
http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles ... nd_Digital
Alright, time to pick apart these horrible examples and quotes. First, whether you liked the content of the '90s or not, that's actually a pretty legitimate belief. I'm pretty sure X-Men #1 is the best-selling comic of all time with 8 million copies. I'm sure everyone in the industry would love to get those readers back.

"That’s edge. Kids love edge. You’ve gotta have edge if you’re going to sell comics. The only problem we had with sales of 52 and Trinity was that they just didn’t have enough edge!"
http://jonathanlast.com/2011/05/31/brin ... dan-didio/
You realize that quote is satire?

"They’ll all be considerably younger and more 'edgy'..."
http://www.csicon.org/have-you-tried-tu ... -on-again/
That's not anyone from DC or WB or even an authority of something like this. Just another article from the hundreds of comic sites.

"They’re taking iconic costumes and overcomplicating them in an unnecessary and unattainable bid at realism and grittiness."
http://eatyourserial.com/blog/bsn-1-the ... nu-so-far/
I don't think any of the costumes can be called gritty but I imagine you'll just slap a word like extreme or grimngritty on anything to do with this relaunch. Superman's bright blue & red suit and young appearance screams the opposite of gritty.

"Nothing is less edgy than things which tell you they are edgy: The latest batch of DCNu."
http://www.signal-watch.com/2011/06/not ... which.html

"DC Gets Edgy"
http://comicrelated.com/news/12290/dc-gets-edgy
A quick word search shows that 'edgy' doesn't appear on that page a single time.

OK, the last one was iffy. But I think you get my point.

No, they were all iffy. I asked for quotes from Johns, Lee, Didio, Harras or anyone affiliated with the relaunch and the best you could come up with is a quote from Ellis, which doesn't defend your position well at all. The rest are people's opinions from random comic sites, which is fine but surely doesn't hold up the idea that creative minds at DC are trying to make the DCU edgy or whatever meaningless word you want to use.

If you want to actually engage in a conversation about what really is wrong with the relaunch (which isn't an entire hard reboot), then I'd be glad to because I'm not completely enthusiastic about it either. I'm more than happy to give it a try though and if it doesn't work for me, then I'll gladly stop reading and have money to pick up other publishers' books. Personally, I'm going to try to read every book that gets good reviews (if I'm not already buying it or interested) in September.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:08 am 
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j1h15233 wrote:
Why do you guys keep assuming that because the MSRP for Marvel legends is 15 that the retailers will sell it for 15? The MSRP for DCUC is 15 too and how is that working out?

They'll probably be priced similar to DCUC in-store, but Marvel product always seems to outsell DC, so it won't really matter.

But they definitely won't retail for $15 on the nose if the MSRP is $15.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:50 am 
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I am expecting ML to come in at $15.99 or $16.99. Maybe even higher like MU and follow MU's pattern where we watch it settle down in price for a bit and slowly rise back up.

Back On Topic, it sounds like DC is going after all license holders to go with the New DC and eschew anything to do with the classic designs that DC wants to feign never existed. A really bad, heavy handed move by DC. If New DC fails, so does DC product at retail, which could seriously set DC back across the board, unless it is just an edict to go All-New to start and get the extra push DC wants before license holders can go back to an at least mixed product line-up.

HERE is a good post over at The Toybuzz about the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:49 am 
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In response to the first post, no matter how long this line would've gone, I'm sure we could post picture after picture after picture of figures they should've made.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:10 am 
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I stopped collecting DCUC a little over a year ago but it makes me sad that the line is ending. I had a lot of fun with it before the cost just got too rich for my blood. I feel even worse for anybody that's been hanging tough.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:31 pm 
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Preliminary report from SDcomics and Daniel's interview with Scott this morning indicate we really don't have much to worry about. I suppose that's a good sign.

Peace,

Chip

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:36 pm 
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I have no reason to trust anything Scott says.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:38 pm 
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SIGH. :roll:

Scott, just do yourself a favor and don't communicate with fans anymore. Save yourself the abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:37 pm 
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The reports I am hearing tell me it is best to wait and see and not jump to conclusions. It does sound likely that the new line will contain pre-reboot characters/designs alongside the new. Also, if one believes the reboot is going to tank they should also figure the DCUC successor will end up taking the format of DCUC when the comics revert back.

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:39 pm 
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So the new news is no more collect and connect pieces I am fine with that as long as that means more tooling for more unique figures but who knows whats happening at this point...

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:57 pm 
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marillion wrote:
Preliminary report from SDcomics and Daniel's interview with Scott this morning indicate we really don't have much to worry about. I suppose that's a good sign.

Peace,

Chip


Where is that interview posted?

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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:12 pm 
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PBateman wrote:
So the new news is no more collect and connect pieces...


I heard Danielle (Fangirl 2.0) say this in her interview with AFTimes and to me that means the new DCUC line(s) will have a harder time at retail than DCUC had. The new brand will have to overcome a collecting base that 1) is split upon the incorporation of the redesigns, 2) is complaining that the price of the figures is too high and doesn't match the quality of product received, and 3) is actually receiving less for that cost because there are no more Collect and Connect pieces. Before a Collect and Connect piece ensured that at least some of the people who didn't like a particular figure bought one. The worst pegwarmers are those figures that split the audience and didn't have a Collect and Connect piece. For example, despite being nicely sculpted figures, Steppenwolf and Cyclotron in particular are among the worst pegwarmers. The next line(s) of DC 6-inch figures will only have a stand (much like the Batman Legacy line). Also, if the Batman Legacy line is any indication, the price of the figures will not change despite the lack of a collect and connect piece.

Hopefully Mattel is smart with their character selection and the stores are careful about pricing. If not, these characters will languish on the pegs and may lose retailer support. DCUC might see something similar to the JLU Fire/Ice and Captain Atom fiasco (which happened for a different reason, but it shows you what too many pegwarmers can do to a line).

While I am not saying that the future DCUC brand is doomed to fail, I am saying that Mattel must tread lightly and really carefully consider the figures they put out at retail. Hopefully Club Infinite Earths goes forward and gives Mattel an avenue to still release figures that collectors want, but won't perform as well at retail.


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 Post subject: Re: Farewell DCUC...we barely knew ye...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Boombot wrote:
No, they were all iffy. I asked for quotes from Johns, Lee, Didio, Harras or anyone affiliated with the relaunch and the best you could come up with is a quote from Ellis, which doesn't defend your position well at all. The rest are people's opinions from random comic sites, which is fine but surely doesn't hold up the idea that creative minds at DC are trying to make the DCU edgy or whatever meaningless word you want to use.

If you want to actually engage in a conversation about what really is wrong with the relaunch (which isn't an entire hard reboot), then I'd be glad to because I'm not completely enthusiastic about it either. I'm more than happy to give it a try though and if it doesn't work for me, then I'll gladly stop reading and have money to pick up other publishers' books. Personally, I'm going to try to read every book that gets good reviews (if I'm not already buying it or interested) in September.


Boombot, thanks for the response. And yours as well, Shellhead. I appreciate the constructive discussion, although like any other forum back-and-forth, it's all-too-easy to pick out small pieces of the conversation, reinterpret it to support one side of the argument, and perceive inflection where there may not be. All three of us are coming from differing viewpoints and personal opinions of the DCU, and therefore to keep arguing about what it means to each of us is pointless. Obviously, I care deeply for the older, historical source material (for better or worse), whereas it really may not mean much to either of you. And that's fine. I just have much more emotional stake in this, and am gripping hard at the idea that it's being kicked to the curb for the sake of realism.

But the truth is, we won't know for sure until the actual books come out. I'm willing to keep an open mind and give it a begrudging chance before I condemn the entire thing outright. As for the 'edgy' examples, I agree those links were weak, but there were simply showing that others within the comic industry also are seeing DC move towards a more 'edgy/realistic/gritty/extreme/etc' form of storytelling. But I know that I read something along those lines from Didio and crew, so I will continue to search for those quotes. In the meantime, I'm still up for debating the ideas, so keep the responses coming.

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