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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:25 pm 
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MoMoney wrote:
Okay, I'll be a moron and bite.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
First off, I never said DC outsold Mattel though Mattycollector, though I believe they did sell more subs the first year it was offered. I was talking about the retail line and pointed that out directly but some glossed over that. The point I was making is that DC has a larger target base to attract than MOTUC.

You've just contradicted yourself. Breath 1: "I never said DC outsold Mattel though (sic) Mattycollector." Breath 2: "I believe they did sell more subs the first year it was offered." Clear as mud!

And for the record, yes, you did. If I may point you toward this sentence in your second post...

I believe the DC sub originally sold better than the MOTUC sub.

Those are your exact words.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
Even if MOTUC sold more subs the point is (which again everyone glossed over) that their fans still had more incentive, the only incentive DC fans were given was an extra Doomsday that should be the standard and not the exception. Scott made more videos targeting the MOTUC audience, encouraging them, responding to fan demands. etc.

The MOTUC sub didn't start out at the point that it is now. The line started in 2008; it didn't expand into a line with extras like Battle Cat until 2010. And why did it do that? Because it sold like hotcakes without any pimping. Its numbers proved to management that they could throw a few more resources MOTUC's way. It grew organically. It grew because the support was there from the beginning.

Had the DC offerings been met with similar support, things would be very different.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
If you deal with character selection, again Scott listened to MOTU collectors and NOT DC collectors. MOTU had all their fan demanded characters made, efforts put behind them while DC went silent. Every popular polled characted from various sites went unheard of as far as action figure creation.

Yeah, no one asked for Jay Garrick, Huntress, Poison Ivy, Ra's al Ghul, Fire, Ice, Aquaman, Platinum, Tin, Lead, Elongated Man, Wally West...they totally missed the mark. Idiots.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
MoMoney - again I stated DC at retail versus MOTUC, if you take into account that yes DC sold less online this past year and the year before but forgot to consider they also had a retail line at the same exact time! Never has DCIE been active and Mattel not have a DC brand on the shelves...combined the sales of MOTUC are meager, the DC brand was mismanaged. Penguin is a prime example of a character that was supposed to show up on DCIE but went to retail which angered many fans. Yes I love Batman but seriously how much can you go to the hole with that one with all the glut of Batman products.

The people that were buying DCIE largely ignored the retail product because nobody wanted it. I don't think anyone buys that as an excuse.

Penguin was never supposed to be in DCIE, and no one was angry that he wasn't included there. He is the exact kind of character that belongs at retail - an iconic Batman character.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
It's plain and simple that Scott and crew were firmly behind MOTUC more than DCIE, or at least to make it last longer. So far the only major demanded characters made this year were CM jr and Huntress. Yet, look at how many wished out characters for MOTUC were made.

If you're dating two girls at the same time, and one of them stops returning your texts, you're probably better off spending your time with the one who's still responding.

Unless you like restraining orders.


1. I originally stated that as a combination DC (retail and sub) outsold MOTUC, again you ignore that for some fruitless point. Secondly I didn't contradict myself, I said I believe the "first year" not as a collective. Also it was stated but not verified that DCIe required more sub numbers than MOTUC to go into effect, not confirmed though.

2. MOTUC has not sold like hotcakes as you claim, well not in every situation. If MOTUC sold so well as you claim then Biglots and some etailers would not of gotten that massive amount of overflow. There are still figures on the site that they can't get rid of. You didn't and don't see any DC overflow from Mattycollector. Secondly you never took into account CHINA, since DCIE has been on Mattycollector Chinese sellers have sold a glut of figures at cheaper prices, driving down the demand on Mattycollector. So before you want to attack me and "play the moron" please consider all factors. MOTUC didn't have the chinese problem that DCIE has been plagued with, only recently have we seen chinese sellers, selling MOTUC. I know people from other forums who bought figures exclusively from China and avoided Mattycollector since DCIE started, those guys were selling hundreds of individual figures. Chinese sellers would sell the figures before the official release on Matty, at cheaper prices, and they were selling hundreds of individual figures. The DC numbers are inconclusive because of this factor.

3. All the figures you mentioned were fan demanded but coming up on this year there were only two so far. If you count the entire line sure you can find figures that people demanded but this exclusive line should cater to the fans just like MOTUC does.

4. The fans didn't outright ignore the DC stuff, I still have only ever seen the New 52 Supes in public once and found just Batman and Batgirl, I don't even like the new figures and I am amazed at how they didn't peg warm. Compare DC figs on the shelf vs ML, you will see more ML's on the shelf (Constrictor, Klaw, that chick, etc) than DC figures. Also there were complaints that Penguin was supposed to be part of the DCIE line, it was all about the classics while the retail was new designs only...so why was a classic Penguin included, it was a backtrack. Think about it, Penguin stuck out because he was a classic inspired figure, no other classic figure went to the shelf.

5. As for your analogy about the girls, well maybe if you paid proper attention to the first girl she would of received you better. The first girl was short changed and she responded in kind, Scott put everything into MOTUC.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:14 am 
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Wow. Who's next? I don't feel like taking a turn yet.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:40 am 
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I'll go again, Joel. I could do this s--- all day.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
1. I originally stated that as a combination DC (retail and sub) outsold MOTUC, again you ignore that for some fruitless point. Secondly I didn't contradict myself, I said I believe the "first year" not as a collective. Also it was stated but not verified that DCIe required more sub numbers than MOTUC to go into effect, not confirmed though.

No, you absolutely did not. You said - and I freaking quote - that you "believe that the DC sub originally sold better than the MOTUC sub."

If the DC sub originally outsold the MOTUC sub, how come it almost didn't get off the ground in the first year? Please answer that.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
2. MOTUC has not sold like hotcakes as you claim, well not in every situation. If MOTUC sold so well as you claim then Biglots and some etailers would not of gotten that massive amount of overflow. There are still figures on the site that they can't get rid of. You didn't and don't see any DC overflow from Mattycollector.

The figures that were unloaded to Big Lots were one of two things - leftover customer service stock or second runs. MOTUC sold so well that they went back into production on the majority of figures from the first two years of the line. How many of the DC figures have they gone back into production on? Goose egg.

I never said that they did in every situation, but please tell me how many DC figures sold out in less than an hour or had to have second runs done to keep up with demand. I'll go ahead and tell you how many MOTUC did - about nineteen.

The figures they "can't get rid of" on the site are He-Man, Skeletor, Panthor, Battle Cat, She-Ra, Keldor, King Hsss, and Hordak, as well as an army builder that they overproduced. The point is to have those characters that are core to the line available all the time. We'll see how many DC figures they try to get rid of during Cyber Monday.

As for China, I sincerely doubt that a significant enough portion of collectors were buying on there. At least not significant enough to subsequently kill the line.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
3. All the figures you mentioned were fan demanded but coming up on this year there were only two so far. If you count the entire line sure you can find figures that people demanded but this exclusive line should cater to the fans just like MOTUC does.

Elongated Man, Wally West, Fire, Huntress, Captain Marvel, Jr., Ra's al Ghul, and Saint Walker were all heavily fan-demanded. That's half of 2013. Your statement holds no water.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
4. The fans didn't outright ignore the DC stuff, I still have only ever seen the New 52 Supes in public once and found just Batman and Batgirl, I don't even like the new figures and I am amazed at how they didn't peg warm. Compare DC figs on the shelf vs ML, you will see more ML's on the shelf (Constrictor, Klaw, that chick, etc) than DC figures. Also there were complaints that Penguin was supposed to be part of the DCIE line, it was all about the classics while the retail was new designs only...so why was a classic Penguin included, it was a backtrack. Think about it, Penguin stuck out because he was a classic inspired figure, no other classic figure went to the shelf.

Yeah, I can totally see where collectors, who didn't want the retail line to be all New 52, would be angry that a non-New 52 showed up in the line.

Pegwarming is all relative and anecdotal. My stores couldn't get rid of Batman, Superman, the Flash, and Hawkman.

Mattel stated from the beginning that the Unlimited lines would not be all New 52 - and they weren't. As for no other classic figures, I guess they never released TDKR Batman, Red Rain Batman, and Planet X Batman.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
5. As for your analogy about the girls, well maybe if you paid proper attention to the first girl she would of received you better. The first girl was short changed and she responded in kind, Scott put everything into MOTUC.

You're a music executive. You have two artists that are making music videos next week. Which one do you give the higher budget to - Miley Cyrus or Christina Aguilera?

One is breaking YouTube records and the talk of the blogosphere, fresh off of her first MTV VMA performance and Billboard Hot 100 #1. The other, while a huge star in her heyday, can't even score herself a hit with the free promo from the country's most-watched singing competition series on which she sits as a judge.

I never thought I'd say these words, but Miley for the win.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:17 am 
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j1h15233 wrote:
Wow. Who's next? I don't feel like taking a turn yet.

Dude, I find your comments rude, dismissing, and sarcastic. I find those things insulting. If you don't like or agree and can't retort in a decent way then please ignore all my future comments. I don't come here and do those things to people I don't agree with and I expect it not to be done to me.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:30 am 
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MoMoney, thanks for picking up the baton.

Superpowers, this is a great forum for expressing divergent viewpoints, and everyone deserves a rant, but there comes a point when it's time to let go.

I did want to respond to one statement: Using terms like "that chick" to describe a toy based on a female character comes across as sexist and serves only to diminish your argument.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:33 am 
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Well it was meant to be sarcastic so mission accomplished. You're so far off base with all your comments here and literally every response to you has proven that and yet you aren't listening. I'm glad you're a DC fan and that you loved DCIE but you're wrong here. MOTUC is really the only reason MC.com is still around. I've been here since it started and I can tell you exactly how many DC figures I remember selling out in less than a day and that's JLU Lobo and the LOSH 12 pack. Almost every MOTUC figure sold out in less than an hour and several of those lasted less than 30 minutes. They created subs because of that line. They sold so much product that they got all kinds of bonuses and larger items and 5 years later it's still going. The DC products never sold well (and some of them were duds of character selection) and the sub barely squeaked by in year one. Not to mention that Mattel makes more money on MOTUC because they own the property. If you can't understand all of that or listen to people who have been here through this whole process then I don't know what to tell you.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:38 am 
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MoMoney wrote:
I'll go again, Joel. I could do this s--- all day.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
1. I originally stated that as a combination DC (retail and sub) outsold MOTUC, again you ignore that for some fruitless point. Secondly I didn't contradict myself, I said I believe the "first year" not as a collective. Also it was stated but not verified that DCIe required more sub numbers than MOTUC to go into effect, not confirmed though.

No, you absolutely did not. You said - and I freaking quote - that you "believe that the DC sub originally sold better than the MOTUC sub."

If the DC sub originally outsold the MOTUC sub, how come it almost didn't get off the ground in the first year? Please answer that.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
2. MOTUC has not sold like hotcakes as you claim, well not in every situation. If MOTUC sold so well as you claim then Biglots and some etailers would not of gotten that massive amount of overflow. There are still figures on the site that they can't get rid of. You didn't and don't see any DC overflow from Mattycollector.

The figures that were unloaded to Big Lots were one of two things - leftover customer service stock or second runs. MOTUC sold so well that they went back into production on the majority of figures from the first two years of the line. How many of the DC figures have they gone back into production on? Goose egg.

I never said that they did in every situation, but please tell me how many DC figures sold out in less than an hour or had to have second runs done to keep up with demand. I'll go ahead and tell you how many MOTUC did - about nineteen.

The figures they "can't get rid of" on the site are He-Man, Skeletor, Panthor, Battle Cat, She-Ra, Keldor, King Hsss, and Hordak, as well as an army builder that they overproduced. The point is to have those characters that are core to the line available all the time. We'll see how many DC figures they try to get rid of during Cyber Monday.

As for China, I sincerely doubt that a significant enough portion of collectors were buying on there. At least not significant enough to subsequently kill the line.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
3. All the figures you mentioned were fan demanded but coming up on this year there were only two so far. If you count the entire line sure you can find figures that people demanded but this exclusive line should cater to the fans just like MOTUC does.

Elongated Man, Wally West, Fire, Huntress, Captain Marvel, Jr., Ra's al Ghul, and Saint Walker were all heavily fan-demanded. That's half of 2013. Your statement holds no water.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
4. The fans didn't outright ignore the DC stuff, I still have only ever seen the New 52 Supes in public once and found just Batman and Batgirl, I don't even like the new figures and I am amazed at how they didn't peg warm. Compare DC figs on the shelf vs ML, you will see more ML's on the shelf (Constrictor, Klaw, that chick, etc) than DC figures. Also there were complaints that Penguin was supposed to be part of the DCIE line, it was all about the classics while the retail was new designs only...so why was a classic Penguin included, it was a backtrack. Think about it, Penguin stuck out because he was a classic inspired figure, no other classic figure went to the shelf.

Yeah, I can totally see where collectors, who didn't want the retail line to be all New 52, would be angry that a non-New 52 showed up in the line.

Pegwarming is all relative and anecdotal. My stores couldn't get rid of Batman, Superman, the Flash, and Hawkman.

Mattel stated from the beginning that the Unlimited lines would not be all New 52 - and they weren't. As for no other classic figures, I guess they never released TDKR Batman, Red Rain Batman, and Planet X Batman.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
5. As for your analogy about the girls, well maybe if you paid proper attention to the first girl she would of received you better. The first girl was short changed and she responded in kind, Scott put everything into MOTUC.

You're a music executive. You have two artists that are making music videos next week. Which one do you give the higher budget to - Miley Cyrus or Christina Aguilera?

One is breaking YouTube records and the talk of the blogosphere, fresh off of her first MTV VMA performance and Billboard Hot 100 #1. The other, while a huge star in her heyday, can't even score herself a hit with the free promo from the country's most-watched singing competition series on which she sits as a judge.

I never thought I'd say these words, but Miley for the win.


1. Again, I said "historically DC sold better, they had a sub and a retail line" then I said "I believe the DC sub originally sold better" I clarified that I meant the first year, you continue to ignore these variables and want to make it seem as if I said something different, if you do not understand they as a combo DC sold better and that I believed the first year of the DC sub did better than MOTUC then I don't know what else or how else to put it. Also what was the jab on the Legion box set, Scott said they sold very well if I remember correctly. Lastly I have been trying to get conformation on this but I was told that DCIE produced more figures than MOTUC on a per figure basis...still need to find that out, but that is the reason why they don't sell out as fast as MOTUC.

2. The point is that they had overstock of MOTUC figures, that alone makes the point. They couldn't unload them on the site and were forced to release them at Big Lots. You miss the glaring point, they couldn't sell them so they had to unload them. They never had to do this with any DC figure. Yes, DC figures didn't get a second run but Matty was never shortchanged on DC figures versus MOTUC, AGAIN...chinese sellers were pushing and still do massive amounts of DC figures, this is a variable that MOTUC never had to deal with. You could sell out of MOTUC and people miss the figures because MAtty was the only place to go besides BBTS and a few other vendors but at higher prices, however one could easily get any DCIE or DC figure for below retail price from china with free shipping. You can ignore this variable but it doesn't make it any less true! Your doubt about china doesn't make it untrue, like I said I know people who bought exclusively from China. I remember sellers were selling figures and the ebay listing would say 300+ sold and 10 or more available. Just because you doubt it, doesn't make it not a reality.

3. The figures you mention are you opinion, one which you believe is superior. EM and Saint Walker were not fan demanded, or at least on the sites I used to frequent, again that is your perception.

4. I will give you that pegwarming is a relative, however my point stands that most of those figures are nowhere to be found now..unless it is different for you. In my area if I ever came across them they never stuck around long, but I sure can find a Klaw if I wanted.

5. Yes, you have two stars of equal magnitude, but if you put the promotion, muscle, and incentive to fans under the one then for sure you can expect better results. Sometimes when an artist or an album isn't properly promoted it gets lost next the big displays of artists who get all the promotion and hype. Seriously can you honestly say the Matty catered and pandered to DC fans the way they did/do MOTUC?


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:57 am 
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1. You can't compare sales of DC (retail+sub) to MOTUC (sub only) and consider that a fair fight. That's like comparing McDonalds to a local family owned diner.

2. I'm pretty sure literally every DC figure offering on MC.com ended up at discount stores or in some type of site sale except for the LOSH pack. The LOSH pack is the only DC offering to get a second run. Several MOTUC figures went through a second run because they sold so many of them. I think He-Man and maybe Skeletor even got a third run.

3. Customer service stock is always "leftovers". They keep it around for a set amount of time to replace figures for anyone who has a problem with theirs. Once that time passes, they sell them online again or sell them to a discount store.

4. Chinese eBay sellers have so much DC product because it didn't sell in the first place or because they stole it. And just because a handful of vocal Matty haters were buying their figures from China, it doesn't mean that made any real dent in sales of the official product.

5. As much as I didn't like a lot of the figures offered in the DC subs, they pretty much went down wishlists online and were checking figures off right and left.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:41 am 
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Superpowers1981 wrote:
1. Again, I said "historically DC sold better, they had a sub and a retail line" then I said "I believe the DC sub originally sold better" I clarified that I meant the first year, you continue to ignore these variables and want to make it seem as if I said something different, if you do not understand they as a combo DC sold better and that I believed the first year of the DC sub did better than MOTUC then I don't know what else or how else to put it. Also what was the jab on the Legion box set, Scott said they sold very well if I remember correctly. Lastly I have been trying to get conformation on this but I was told that DCIE produced more figures than MOTUC on a per figure basis...still need to find that out, but that is the reason why they don't sell out as fast as MOTUC.

The Legion set performed well, but it was about nine months late. It was a nightmare for them to put together, and they've gone on record saying that they'd never do it again. Not successful enough to be worth their time.

As for your belief that they are producing more DC figures than MOTUC, that is illogical.

DC has proven time and time again to not sell particularly well on Matty. It barely squeaks by year after year. Why would Mattel make more day of sale figures for their slower selling property than their property that is much more successful?

Superpowers1981 wrote:
2. The point is that they had overstock of MOTUC figures, that alone makes the point. They couldn't unload them on the site and were forced to release them at Big Lots. You miss the glaring point, they couldn't sell them so they had to unload them. They never had to do this with any DC figure.

No, you miss the point that they are customer service stock. Mattel holds back a certain percentage for returns. These items were sold off to Big Lots. They've said that they won't be doing that again because they aren't manufacturing in quantities that large now. You'll notice that all of the items that have hit Big Lots are from 2011 and earlier. There was no DC sub until 2012; all production quantities were cut by that point.


Superpowers1981 wrote:
3. The figures you mention are you opinion, one which you believe is superior. EM and Saint Walker were not fan demanded, or at least on the sites I used to frequent, again that is your perception.

So, tell me. Who is fan-demanded? This should be fun.

Superpowers1981 wrote:
5. Yes, you have two stars of equal magnitude, but if you put the promotion, muscle, and incentive to fans under the one then for sure you can expect better results. Sometimes when an artist or an album isn't properly promoted it gets lost next the big displays of artists who get all the promotion and hype. Seriously can you honestly say the Matty catered and pandered to DC fans the way they did/do MOTUC?

Why should you put the same amount of push behind an artist that you know is past their prime?

MOTUC grew naturally. You keep missing this point. They didn't start "catering" to that line until it proved itself as an online brand. DC never did. Had it taken off, they would've treated it like MOTUC - but it didn't.

Them's the facts.


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Man, we haven't had one of these fanboy fights in awhile!

Let me go get my popcorn. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Superpowers1981 wrote:
If you deal with character selection, again Scott listened to MOTU collectors and NOT DC collectors. MOTU had all their fan demanded characters made, efforts put behind them while DC went silent. Every popular polled characted from various sites went unheard of as far as action figure creation.



I'm hardly a matty apologist, but you can't really blame them completely for character selection. They do have to get it all cleared through DC/WB first. And with MoTU, they can pretty much make any character they please except for the movie characters right?


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 Post subject: Re: DCIE vs MOTUC - who did Mattel invest in
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:17 am 
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Shellhead wrote:
Man, we haven't had one of these fanboy fights in awhile!

Let me go get my popcorn. :lol:


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