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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:32 pm 
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ice_018 wrote:
I think that next year there´s going to be a The Batman exclusive, maybe tne female is going to be Harley Quinn, the same way Catwoman was some years ago.

which is complete bull because harley will to a whole lot better than some neon-yellow batman in a regular retailer


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:32 pm 
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Azrael24 wrote:
ice_018 wrote:
I think that next year there´s going to be a The Batman exclusive, maybe tne female is going to be Harley Quinn, the same way Catwoman was some years ago.

which is complete bull because harley will to a whole lot better than some neon-yellow batman in a regular retailer

Absolutely! I don't understand what makes them think females and villains won't sell.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Caped Crusader wrote:
Arrakhat wrote:
Those TNBA 2-packs you mention weren't brand new figures though, were they? I mean, the two packs were just the same six figures that warmed pegs, not brand new sculpts for figures being produced in a continuing toy line.

Yes, that was their first release at the time. Remember the Penguin four-pack at TRU? Brand new when it was released, and it sold very well.

Gotcha. I honestly don't know the TNBA history, so this is all interesting stuff for me to learn. All I can throw out is that we only ever saw the A-list characters from Batman. Batman, Nightwing, Robin, Joker, Catwoman, Two-face, and Penguin are widely known to those outside the hardcore fans. JLU, on the other hand, is trying to sell characters like Obsidian, Sand, Vigilante, and other characters who aren't as well known as the big 3. It seems like that might hurt the line, even though Mattel has countered that by sprinkling them in with the big 3.

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Arrakhat wrote:
As for the Legion point, that doesn't help make your case. The Legion line only proves that even with a supporting cartoon, a toy line can still fail.

What it "proves" is that having a show on the air is not the deciding factor of whether or not retailers will buy into a line, which is exactly what I said. Having an established brand and recognizable characters can make that happen without a current series. Marvel Legends, Spider-Man Classics, 25th Anniversary G.I. Joe, and all the G1-inspired Transformers lines have been successful for these reasons. JLU offers Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and a lot of supporting characters at a very low price. Legion has Superman and a bunch of characters most people wouldn't recognize. What was the point when an animated Superman was already available in JLU, and no other recognizable Superman characters were in the series (a problem The Batman doesn't have)?

Marvel Legends and Spider-man Classics were supported by a strong comic base, while JLU comics aren't as widely known (to the best of my knowledge). As for Transformers and GI Joe, those have decades of support from multiple sources in media. What does JLU have? A cartoon that died over a year ago. That's harder to work with, I'd think.

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Arrakhat wrote:
If that's the fate of toy lines that do have cartoons aupporting them, I'd say JLU's chances are very slim. Remember the Fantastic Four cartoon line that never happened? Once again, the line's fate implies that retailers don't see cartoon lines as strong.

The ten-month midseason hiatus meant the line wasn't going to get much help from having a series, and honestly, Batman and Superman are far more popular as characters. JLU offers both.

So you agree that not having a show hurt the F4 line's chances of being picked up? JLU appears to be facing that problem now (Or why else are retailers hesitating to pick up the line? I'm surprised that the expansion of the list of characters covered hasn't increased appeal, though.).

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Arrakhat wrote:
How many cartoons even have toy lines right now? I know that Pokemon, Naruto, and other anime shows have toy lines, but what about non-anime boys toys? I can only think of JLU, The Batman, Ben 10, and Avatar. Of the four, JLU is the only one without a show to bolster it now, and the line's current status seems to reflect that.

In addition to Pokémon and Naruto, there's also DragonBall Z and Yu-Gi-Oh. Avatar: The Last Airbender (an American series) are plentiful. Krypto The Superdog had a good run, but really, there was only so much they could do with the line. G.I. Joe: Sigma 6 toys are still being released, and it's been over a year since a new episode of that cartoon last aired.

Yeah, more anime, like I said. Avatar still has new episodes, the Krypto line is done (right? I haven't heard anyhting new, but I wasn't looking), and the Sigma 6 toys... Well, I don't know a thing about that line. I'll leave that to you?

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Arrakhat wrote:
Obviously I don't know the demographics, I don't know where to find them. Sorry I'm not omniscient.

I don't expect anyone to be "omniscient", but personally, I like to know what I'm talking about before I get all condescending with someone.

I wasn't condescending about the demographics, I asked an honest question. I think you read too deep there.

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Arrakhat wrote:
As for the demographics, I doubt their accuracy (Can you tell me how they determine that it was boys watching the show? I don't know exactly how demographics work).

Television viewing habits are monitored by Nielsen Media Research, they use Set Meters, People Meters, and surveys to determine demographics, and the information was available online at the time. Regardless of whether or not Arrakhat doubts it (:lol:), Nielsen has been recording viewer statistics for nearly 60 years, and theirs is the most accurate data.

What I question is how the accuracy of the demographics is measured. Through polls? 'Cause those are always accurate. It's one thing to poll an election, because the end results are obvious, but how do you measure the end results of age demographics successfully? The age factor would be harder to measure. I mean, it's not like we know that just because a household has a younger boy, the one in the house watching JLU os that child.

If you know how that works too, by all means, explain, because I'm stumped. You clearly hold those who disagree with you in contempt, so maybe I should just drop this point since you know more about the history of demographics. After all, that makes your logic infallible. :roll:

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Arrakhat wrote:
If adult fans had trouble catching the show, something tells me kids wouldn't have it easier.

I don't recall the rash of people having trouble catching it, but whatever. The show's producers have said time and time again that JLU's adult audience was smaller than its younger audience.

If you had been at the World's Finest Onling boards you'd have heard folks complaining about not catching the episodes.

Let's look at this from another angle: I'll concede that the demographics are correct, even though I'm shifty on how those are handled and tested for accuracy. How many kids watched the JLU show a year and a half ago and still remember it well and like it enough to buy the toys from the line? Of those, how many are still following the line's progress after a year of scarce figures? I think the support isn't that strong. Sure, mommies still buy the figures, and kids will get them too, but probably not as many as used to.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:01 pm 
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I dont even know what you guys are debating about anymore.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:15 pm 
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Arsenio3 wrote:
I dont even know what you guys are debating about anymore.

Well, I was arguing about the JLU line with Chip when Caped Crusader turned it into an arguement about demographics on the JLU show and whether or not the toy line needs a supporting show. At this point I'm getting lost too, so I'll concede all points concerning demographics and such to Caped Crusader, because he has far more knowledge in those fields. Your logic has beaten me, sir, and I beg your mercy. I still maintain that a lack of show is weakening the JLU line's chances, however.

For anyone who knows, how long does a line like JLU sit without being picked up before it gets discarded? That's probably most important info we could get about the line right now. Mattel can tell us that much, can't they?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:10 am 
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Arrakhat wrote:
Marvel Legends and Spider-man Classics were supported by a strong comic base, while JLU comics aren't as widely known (to the best of my knowledge).

The #1 selling comic for the month of October barely cracked 110K issues. Crediting comics for the success of an action figure line is a stretch of the imagination.

Arrakhat wrote:
As for Transformers and GI Joe, those have decades of support from multiple sources in media. What does JLU have? A cartoon that died over a year ago. That's harder to work with, I'd think.

JLU has Superman and Batman, which means more decades of support from multiple sources in media.

Arrakhat wrote:
So you agree that not having a show hurt the F4 line's chances of being picked up?

No, I was saying that it wasn't going to get any help from having a series.

Arrakhat wrote:
Or why else are retailers hesitating to pick up the line?

What makes you think Mattel has made their pitch yet? What reason do we have to believe it would be made prior to Toy Fair?

Arrakhat wrote:
I wasn't condescending about the demographics, I asked an honest question. I think you read too deep there.

You were being condescending toward Chip in general throughout your post.

Arrakhat wrote:
how do you measure the end results of age demographics successfully?

Surveys are only part of it. They use People Meters to determine who is watching what in each household.

Arrakhat wrote:
The age factor would be harder to measure. I mean, it's not like we know that just because a household has a younger boy, the one in the house watching JLU os that child.

Yes, we actually do, because of the People Meters. Otherwise, advertisers wouldn't be spending money to have their ads run during shows aimed at younger audiences.

Arrakhat wrote:
You clearly hold those who disagree with you in contempt

Actually, just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was correcting you.

Arrakhat wrote:
so maybe I should just drop this point since you know more about the history of demographics. After all, that makes your logic infallible. :roll:

This isn't about history, but rather how statistics are collected and analyzed. If you knew nothing about that, maybe you shouldn't have suggested that kids weren't watching JLU, when they most certainly were, in your efforts to be condescending toward another forum member.

Arrakhat wrote:
If you had been at the World's Finest Onling boards you'd have heard folks complaining about not catching the episodes.

Funny, it didn't hurt the ratings.

Arrakhat wrote:
How many kids watched the JLU show a year and a half ago and still remember it well and like it enough to buy the toys from the line?

The show still airs on Boomerang, and two other DCAU titles, Batman: The Animated Series and Superman: The Animated Series, still air on Toon Disney. Kids are still being exposed to Timmverse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Caped Crusader wrote:
Arrakhat wrote:
Marvel Legends and Spider-man Classics were supported by a strong comic base, while JLU comics aren't as widely known (to the best of my knowledge).

The #1 selling comic for the month of October barely cracked 110K issues. Crediting comics for the success of an action figure line is a stretch of the imagination.

Are you really going to tell me that without comics these figures would sell as well as they do? I never said that comics account for the whole success, but to deny any contribution the comics provide is ridiculous.

Quote:
Arrakhat wrote:
As for Transformers and GI Joe, those have decades of support from multiple sources in media. What does JLU have? A cartoon that died over a year ago. That's harder to work with, I'd think.

JLU has Superman and Batman, which means more decades of support from multiple sources in media.

Superman and Batman have tons of support, no doubt. How about folks like Vigilante, Brainiac, and Obsidian? To the casual mom or child merely looking for figures, characters such as those are probably a harder sell. Obviously being in the same line as Superman and Batman helps, but there's a difference between the heroes and the Transformers/Joes. As a youth I only wanted Batman and his supporting cast because I saw the TV show. Other heroes aren't necessarily linked to Batman since he can stand alone, and I didn't care for them. Joes and Transformers, however, are reliant on one another.

Quote:
Arrakhat wrote:
So you agree that not having a show hurt the F4 line's chances of being picked up?

No, I was saying that it wasn't going to get any help from having a series.

So if having a show would help, then not having one could hurt, right?

Quote:
Arrakhat wrote:
Or why else are retailers hesitating to pick up the line?

What makes you think Mattel has made their pitch yet? What reason do we have to believe it would be made prior to Toy Fair?

Because Mattel's comments gave the impression that they've already given the pitch. You only need to look around this board to see that.

Quote:
Arrakhat wrote:
I wasn't condescending about the demographics, I asked an honest question. I think you read too deep there.

You were being condescending toward Chip in general throughout your post.

That was because Chip purposely quoted only parts of my post in order to make a point. I can't stand when people take my comments out of context to make points, can you?

Anyway, the demographics thing was still just an honest question. I can't help it if you want to find reasons to attack my post. If you want to make points when I'm wrong (like on the demographics), fine, but don't tell me how I asked a question.

Quote:
Arrakhat wrote:
how do you measure the end results of age demographics successfully?

Surveys are only part of it. They use People Meters to determine who is watching what in each household.

Arrakhat wrote:
The age factor would be harder to measure. I mean, it's not like we know that just because a household has a younger boy, the one in the house watching JLU os that child.

Yes, we actually do, because of the People Meters. Otherwise, advertisers wouldn't be spending money to have their ads run during shows aimed at younger audiences.

Arrakhat wrote:
You clearly hold those who disagree with you in contempt

Actually, just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was correcting you.

Arrakhat wrote:
so maybe I should just drop this point since you know more about the history of demographics. After all, that makes your logic infallible. :roll:

This isn't about history, but rather how statistics are collected and analyzed. If you knew nothing about that, maybe you shouldn't have suggested that kids weren't watching JLU, when they most certainly were, in your efforts to be condescending toward another forum member.

I suggested that kids had difficulty catching JLU, not that they "weren't watching JLU" (which would be a choice they make, not them missing it because CW scheduled things badly). I've already conceded the demographics points to you though, so I digress (and yes, you were correcting me, not disagreeing, I misspoke).

However, I was never condescending when I asked Chip about kids catching the show. I've already told you that a few times.

Quote:
Arrakhat wrote:
If you had been at the World's Finest Onling boards you'd have heard folks complaining about not catching the episodes.

Funny, it didn't hurt the ratings.

When did I say it hurt ratings? I said folks had difficulty catching it. That's the truth, whether you like it or not. There's no deeper meaning behind my statement there besides the inference that if aadults had trouble catching JLU, I'm sure kids were faced with similar problems.

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Arrakhat wrote:
How many kids watched the JLU show a year and a half ago and still remember it well and like it enough to buy the toys from the line?

The show still airs on Boomerang, and two other DCAU titles, Batman: The Animated Series and Superman: The Animated Series, still air on Toon Disney. Kids are still being exposed to Timmverse.

How widespread is Boomerang? I don't disagree about BTAS or STAS, but I thought JLU was still hard to find on the air. Isn't Boomerang a premium channel or something?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:57 pm 
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Arrakhat wrote:
That was because Chip purposely quoted only parts of my post in order to make a point. I can't stand when people take my comments out of context to make points, can you?


Hold the phone here. The parts of your post I quoted were only in reference to the point I made. You suggested I complained every time someone mentioned DCUC. I did not say I never complained when someone mentioned DCUC (because I know I did it at least one), but said that I did *not* complain *every time* someone mentioned it, as you inferred.

Where did I quote things that had zero relevance to the point I made?

Peace,

Chip


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:11 pm 
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I'll take a chance and chime in here. I know we have a bunch of optomists and younger folks here on the board, but I suspect Chip and I are among the older (i.e. 30+) collectors on the board and we've seen some of the lines die on the vine. I can honestly say JLU reminds me a lot of the last wave of Super Powers figures. While you could find the first waves everywhere, it became harder and harder to find the later figures. This is what's happening now with JLU and I'm convinced this line is dead. The show is over and the last three-pack I bought was at Big Lots. I don't think there's a coincidence in all this.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:02 am 
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Arrakhat wrote:
Are you really going to tell me that without comics these figures would sell as well as they do? I never said that comics account for the whole success, but to deny any contribution the comics provide is ridiculous.

Citing a "strong comic base" in the first place is what was ridiculous. Look, there are at least as many people buying DCAU sets on DVD as there are buying any particular comic title every month, let alone everyone who watched the episodes when they aired or downloaded them illegally. Comic books introduced a lot of adult collectors to superheroes, but they don't drive the sales of Marvel Legends, and Spider-Man Classics never would have relaunched in 2003 without the success of the film.

Arrakhat wrote:
Superman and Batman have tons of support, no doubt. How about folks like Vigilante, Brainiac, and Obsidian? To the casual mom or child merely looking for figures, characters such as those are probably a harder sell. Obviously being in the same line as Superman and Batman helps, but there's a difference between the heroes and the Transformers/Joes. As a youth I only wanted Batman and his supporting cast because I saw the TV show. Other heroes aren't necessarily linked to Batman since he can stand alone, and I didn't care for them. Joes and Transformers, however, are reliant on one another.

No more so than superheroes. Look, I was into obscure STAR WARS, DC, G.I. Joe, and Transformers characters as a kid. I wanted all the villains in the Super Powers line. There, now we've both posted our personal experiences, neither of which is the least bit scientific or relevant.

Arrakhat wrote:
So if having a show would help, then not having one could hurt, right?

Sure, it could, but it doesn't make the line's chances very slim, which is what you said.

Arrakhat wrote:
Because Mattel's comments gave the impression that they've already given the pitch. You only need to look around this board to see that.

Please show me where a Mattel spokesperson has said retailers have seen the pitch for a DC Animated Universe line.

Arrakhat wrote:
That was because Chip purposely quoted only parts of my post in order to make a point. I can't stand when people take my comments out of context to make points, can you?

I think Chip's account of what happened is perfectly accurate.

Arrakhat wrote:
If you want to make points when I'm wrong (like on the demographics), fine, but don't tell me how I asked a question.

I also think it's hilarious that you're giving me orders. :lol:

Arrakhat wrote:
How widespread is Boomerang? I don't disagree about BTAS or STAS, but I thought JLU was still hard to find on the air. Isn't Boomerang a premium channel or something?

Boomerang had two million subscribers in less than a year, 4.5 million in less than two years, and is currently, according to The New York Times, in 20-25 million homes (Time Warner Cable, which shares a parent company with Boomerang, had nearly 21 million subscribers on its own at the beginning of 2007).


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 Post subject: I bet I know what the Female Con Piece is
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:34 pm 
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I bet I know what the Female Con Piece is.......JLU Fire and Ice!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: I bet I know what the Female Con Piece is
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:55 pm 
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phenix21 wrote:
I bet I know what the Female Con Piece is.......JLU Fire and Ice!!!!!!!

Mmm, sure hope not.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:43 am 
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Yeah. I wish those would make it to regular retail.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:27 am 
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well, the Miracle/Darkseid/orion 3pack is on the back of the Grodd box.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:49 pm 
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superfriend wrote:
well, the Miracle/Darkseid/orion 3pack is on the back of the Grodd box.

Really? That's awesome!


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