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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Shellhead, don't you mainly just pose them on your shelves? Imagine a kid who is playing with these figures everyday. What is tolerable on a diorama piece becomes unacceptable on a toy

If anything, I believe youtube under-represents the problem because in many of the reviews, getting them into the final pose, putting all the little accessories on, etc, does not take place on camera. So you don't get to see all the frustration of problematic joints (showing articulation is one thing - the joints being able to reliably and quickly change and hold poses is another), seeing the accessories fall off at the slightest bump, etc.

The older lines, like the original MOTU, TMNT, etc, may not have had as much articulation, but they were not as frustrating to play with as these modern figures from Hasbro. You didn't have to worry about sticky or loose joints, limbs popping off if you open them too roughly, and for example, when you put the ram skeleton staff in the hand of a vintage Skeletor figure - it stays in.


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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Is it me or do most of the issues with articulation revolve around poorly made Marvel figures? And I don't think it's so much the articulation but the quality of the product. Loose joints. Broken joints. Stuck joints. You name an issue and it's probably a Marvel figure being used as an example. Are there any similar issues with other toylines? I have a 6" Panthro from Bandai and yes his ankle joints are (after only three days) getting a bit loose but that's about it. And I heard that's easily fixable. Is it just Hasbro or what? If so, their business model does not satisfy the customer. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:47 pm 
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It's not just MU, it's every highly articulated 3 3/4 line including GI Joe. Smallness + a ton of articulation = fragile.


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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:57 am 
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JamesTheRogue wrote:
It's not just MU, it's every highly articulated 3 3/4 line including GI Joe. Smallness + a ton of articulation = fragile.


If you consider a 200 pound person stepping on a figure and it breaking fragile, then yes. Plastic is not indestructable. 20 years ago I could cash in 24 aluminum cans and it was a pound. Now it is over 30. That is how much material they have removed from the cans to save money. You can imagine they are probably not the only ones...

CCC.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:28 am 
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James, if your point is that older (vintage) toys used better plastic, then I'd have to agree. They just don't make 'em like they used to, and that goes for a lot more things than toys.

If your point is that Hasbro's 3.75 figures are just poorly made overall, I can't disagree more.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:43 am 
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JamesTheRogue wrote:
It's not just MU, it's every highly articulated 3 3/4 line including GI Joe. Smallness + a ton of articulation = fragile.


Address Star Wars please. :D

I actually do somewhat agree with your complaints about MU. I haven't gotten any Joes since the 25th Anniversary line, but I had some problems with those as well. And your point about putting a weapon in a vintage figure's hand and it stays there is something I miss, too.

But, not to beat a dead horse, Hasbro's Star Wars 3 3/4" line is small, well articulated (yet not ugly), and NOT fragile. They are super!

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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:54 pm 
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I don't own a single Star Wars figure. For me, Star Wars ended in the mid 80s after Return of the Jedi came out. Everything Star Wars related made from the late 80s onward I feel is not worth anyone's attention and as such I pretend that none of it exists.

But, because I was genuinely curious to see if somehow Hasbro's modern Star Wars lines were more durable than GI Joe or MU, I did browse around Amazon reading some figure reviews from consumers. This is what I found.

"Klown" writes of the Grievous with cape:

"I received this toy yesterday and, in less than one day, it has already broken in several places. The toy has a ball/socket above the waist that easily pops off, separating the figure into two pieces. The hands are able to spin 360 degrees, but are flimsy and one of them has broken off as well. Not a durable toy. Also, it only comes with 2 lit lightsabers, not 4, and it does not stand on its own."

Verna Garton writes of a Vader:

"This figure is nothing like the vintage Darth Vader sold back in 1980. Please see the Dominator's review for an accurate and complete description. I am giving this a one star because the admittedly cool helmet merely rests on Darth Vader's head and easily falls off. This was a gift for my 4 year old and if he is VERY careful and holds Darth upright the helmet will stay on. Any actual playing causes the helmet to fall off. It is also ridiculous that his right hand won't hold the lightsaber."

Even on the favourable four and five star reviews we see disturbing mentions of poor quality.

"A kid's review" (four stars) of a 2011 Clone Wars Animated Exclusive 2pack states:

"so the only fuss about the clone is the hands easily fall off. !but the sholders are a little small compared to the other clones and the geonisian is kind of hard to make stand up,but the head of the clone has no face, just saying! but if you like clones, get it!"


"A kid's review" (five stars) of the E3 BF32 Battle Droid mentions:

"My guys head fell off right when I opened the box. You can put it back on easily. It's a very fun toy to play with.I have always loved the Battle Droids. This is a good one if you like the droids. "

Where are we as a society that when action figures fall apart right out of the box, it does not elicit shock, but instead is seen as no big deal by some people? This would not have been tolerated in the 80s or even the 90s.

Others are not so generous,

B. Morris:
"This version of the Battle Droid has very weak legs. As mentioned in other reviews, prop this dude up against something if you take it out of the package to play with it as the plastic legs are so thin they have a difficult time supporting the weight of the figure and the legs will bend sideways (at the knees). Unfortunately, the Episode III (Revenge of the Sith) Super Battle Droid figure suffers from the same design problems. "

Jay:
"Head comes off easily. Droid sits on my desk but if it falls over the head will come off. I'll be using super glue soon.

Doesn't hold it's gun properly. It doesn't "click" in place or anything like that. On top of that, the arms/hands are not rotated correctly to hold the gun (as shown on picture). So when the plastic starts rotating back in its original place, the gun pops out. Again, I'll get out the super glue to fix that."


T. McNamara:
"The only thing this figure has going for it is that it looks cool. I bought this figure for my son and before I could get it out of the package the head came off. It's easy to snap back on but the way it was designed it's also easy to come off so I ended up super glueing the head on. Then the gun or "laser" as we call them here at home keeps falling out of it's hands because the "fingers" don't grasp very well. So when ever he plays with it I hear "daddy can you fix this" until he gets tired of asking me."

Is it any wonder that action figure sales have decreased so much? It seems like over the years every adult collector pushed for more and more articulation, while at the same time hatefully referring to action features as "gimmicks". All the toy magazines, websites, forums, reflected this attitude. Apparently it never occurred to people that there is a difference between building a diorama and kids playing, and that kids actually like those action features. So this is what we get now, highly articulated little pieces of garbage that fall apart and are frustrating for kids to play with, meanwhile a lack of action features and the fun they once brought.


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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:20 pm 
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JamesTheRogue wrote:
Everything Star Wars related made from the late 80s onward I feel is not worth anyone's attention and as such I pretend that none of it exists

I'm not sure why I kept reading after that part, but I did. I disagree with so much of what you've said that I don't know where to start. I'll just end there.


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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:46 am 
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So you picked- 6 reviews- -of some of the worse figures- (out of over 2000 choices)-- to prove your point-- from a person who doesnt collect the line--

Is like me commenting about Transformers-- which i have about 8 of and would never even add my opinion to those discussions. And then assuming I know all about the line by what I read online-- 'by usually always disastified fanboys..

The removeable helmet vader- was a complaint and Hasbro addressed it-- (and what would be funny-- is that those Battle Droid reviews (were probably the onese that the heads are designed to pop off an switch with Threepio.)

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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:32 pm 
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xrmc20 wrote:
I'm not sure why I kept reading after that part, but I did.
It's 'cause you just don't learn. :wink:

Cantina-Dan wrote:
But, not to beat a dead horse, Hasbro's Star Wars 3 3/4" line is small, well articulated (yet not ugly), and NOT fragile. They are super!
I buy The Clone Wars toys for my niece all the time. She loves 'em. She plays with 'em. I've never had to buy a replacement.

'Nuff said.


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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:49 am 
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Oh boy James is on one of his kicks again, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:09 pm 
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JamesTheRogue wrote:
Watch the jtrain review on Scarlet Spider as well, this figure breaks immediately after being opened.





I think you need to watch that vid again, it popped off, not broke. It also popped right back on (Broke implys cannot be fixed without some kind of serious work). In actuality that mold (for spidey) has had ths problem since it was first used and is well documented (look on any Marvel Board to confirm). It's an issue with the t-bar being too big for the leg, but it is just THIS MOLD. Granted Hasbro shouldn't have reused it, but it's a bit unfair to find one design flaw in a line of 100's of figures and make that a representation of the whole of the line. Are you going to try to say there has never been a design flaw in larger lines? I can think of a few.

In relation to that, I have had more joint pop-offs with Toybiz's Marvel Legends than with hasbro's Marvel Universe.

JamesTheRogue wrote:
It's not just MU, it's every highly articulated 3 3/4 line including GI Joe. Smallness + a ton of articulation = fragile.


Yet tons of people who collect these lines are saying different, you have admitted you do not go near any of these lines and yet insist your POV is "RIGHT" based on no experence. No one is saying embrace the scale, but seriously you don't have to BS to justify your POV.


JamesTheRogue wrote:
I don't own a single Star Wars figure. For me, Star Wars ended in the mid 80s after Return of the Jedi came out. Everything Star Wars related made from the late 80s onward I feel is not worth anyone's attention and as such I pretend that none of it exists.


I have been a very hardcore SW collector since they added articulation in the 30th collection (around 2005 or so) and I cannot think of ONE QC issue I have ever had with a Star Wars figure. Not one popped joint, loose joint, or anything I would say is "fragile".

I won't say there has never been design flaws (General Grevious is a prime example as he should stand much easier and have more lightsabers) but that is not QC and I don't think you can find a line in any scale that avoids design issues.

JamesTheRogue wrote:
Where are we as a society that when action figures fall apart right out of the box, it does not elicit shock, but instead is seen as no big deal by some people? This would not have been tolerated in the 80s or even the 90s.


I missed where the fate of society was so dependant on the Quality of our action figures. I guess we're doomed ;-).

In all seriousness, a few issues that are probably just as equal to the days of yore (the less than 5% mentioned previously) do not a disaster make. In relation to the 80's, I can remember being a kid and picking up Luke and Obi-Wan and thier heads falling off right out of the package, it wasn't that they were weak or poorly made, it was a machine problem which does happen occasionally to ALL toy lines, this is a known quanity.

JamesTheRogue wrote:
Is it any wonder that action figure sales have decreased so much? It seems like over the years every adult collector pushed for more and more articulation, while at the same time hatefully referring to action features as "gimmicks". All the toy magazines, websites, forums, reflected this attitude. Apparently it never occurred to people that there is a difference between building a diorama and kids playing, and that kids actually like those action features. So this is what we get now, highly articulated little pieces of garbage that fall apart and are frustrating for kids to play with, meanwhile a lack of action features and the fun they once brought.


I can't help but notice your basis for this was (In the last set of reviews) the Ep III Battle droid, meaning you had to go all the way back to 2005 to find bad reviews. In addition (again) there is more about design flaws than actual fragility of the figures (That Droid has a long well documented set of design flaws BTW). Yet these reviews from 6 years ago about one flawed design give you this conclusion?

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 Post subject: Re: Realism has ruined the fun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:01 am 
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As much as I like lots of articulation I'm beginning to gravitate toward less articulated but very detailed figures. Between Marvel Legends and Marvel Select I really like the direction Diamond Select is taking their figures. Realistic looks as opposed to realistic (more complete?) body movement.


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