Thank-you for stepping in TS, I hope you don't mind if I say one more thing on the subject... Okay guys/gals this is a toy forum, just because we disagree doesn't mean we need to be rude or offensive about it, (and even if you don't like that individual... I would suggest not reading his/her post's or just ignore her/him altogether.) Now why don't we try and be friends and get back on topic?
So HalJordanist, I know you just posted this a few days ago but how have you been dealing with this, are things getting any better? You seem like a very intelligent individual, so I take it you have a plan or something you are going to follow to help get you back to a better mindset and overall life.
BTW: when I say "better mindset" I am in no way implying that you are crazy or anything, sorry if it seemed like I was.


D.

HalJordanist,

You're very brave to admit to a problem like this.
I'm sorry this addiction has caused so much trouble between you and your wife. Sad to say that something catastrophic like that can often become the impetus to realize you have a problem, and to make a change.

I don't have a problem with toys, although over the last 10 years I've gone to thinking my max should be about 50 action figures, and it's now at about 120. It's time to do another purge, and the local Goodwill and Toys for Tots will benefit from it, like they usually do. I have to admit, it's kinda nice to get rid of things if I'm giving them away, because it makes me feel good and reinforces the behavior.

I don't suggest you do that however. You can probably make some serious money with the size of your collection. You should keep a few things. Things you truly adore. Things that you think represent the very best of the art and design of the toy. How about 100 items? Think you can enjoy having instead of getting? But give away some too. It's nice.

But the important thing really is that you have seriously looked into the problem, and are taking steps to correct it. It's not going to be easy. While I have never had a problem with toys, I am very knowlegable about substance abuse and have been involved with alcoholics anonymous for decades. Addiction is addiction and it can take over your life, and we are often unable to stop it by ourselves.

I feel like your post is a good first step in reaching out for help. Don't let it be the last one. You have very serious things inside you behaviorly and chemically driving you to this destructive addiction, and it's difficult to re-wire your brain out of it. Make sure you are sharing your goals and your progress, perhaps with your wife. Make her a part of the process. Hard science tells us you are more likely to succeed in your goals if you share that goal with others.

not everyone was being offensive and made valid points against his theory that toy collecting caused people to get overweight.

I still think you're arguing up the wrong tree. You're assuming that he is saying "Collecting toys makes people fat." That's not what he said at all. I think this is a case of misunderstanding the argument and letting yourself be too subjective about the topic. No one has said (the exception being you) that anything "causes" anything. We're talking about correlations and links. If you're saying, "There is no relationship in any way between collecting toys, and being overweight."I think you've already made up your mind about this without truly acknowledging any arguments. And you continue to take what has been said and spin it into your own context. You also fail to acknowledge the difference between extremes and averages. You're grouping everyone together while we are only making reference extremes.

In other words, your're assuming, and saying, we're saying something we're not saying. (Say that three times fast).

No one has said that "toy collecting makes you fat." What has been stated, repeatedly, is that there are various neurological processes and chemical reactions that affect human behavior. We've acknowledge that behaviors related to satiety are affected by these chemical and neurological patterns and reactions. Thus, it stands to reason, any difficulty an individual has reaching conventionally normal levels of satiety (be it toy collecting, overeating, alcohol, shoes, purses, thimbles, etc.) can be caused by a dopamine deficiency. The reason we are specifically talking about toy collecting in relationship to being overweight is because 1) this is a toy collecting forum, and 2) obesity is a huge public health issue that is statistically more likely to affect everyone in our society more than any of the aforementioned addictions.

All evidence you have offered has either been anecdotal, or emotionally tarnished. I challenge you to provide any sort of evidence that disproves the points that have been made.

-J

at the start he did clearly say that collecting toys causes overweight.

and i challenge you to back up your side with evidence the only bit of evidence that was put forward was about tests on monkeys.

what journal scientific or medical what doctor or scientist can prove a link to being overweight and toy collecting?

wheres your proof?

dont try and sugarcoat what the guy said he clearly made out collecting toys caused people to be overweight.

Okay guys I suggest we just drop it now, I mean all you are doing is going around in circles trying to convince one another of something that IMO, is not an important issue. The main topic of this thread is not about that. So why don't we: A.) Either get back on topic talking about the main issue. B.) Let's just walk away and forgive and forget.
This is a toy forum and toys can be very fun, so let's go talk about just how fun they can be!



D.

Because an argument can be extremely fun and constructive, provided it stays civil. And given the subject of the thread, this specific notion does seem to be of importance, or at least of interest.

First, don't dismiss research on primates, as the brain makeup and behavioral patterns amongst humans and primates are very similar, which is why they are so widely used in research. (See Harry Harlow's research on attachment).

Second, I don't think James "clearly" said what you're implying he did.



While James perhaps phrased his idea too conslusively: "This also explains why so many action figure collectors are overweight," he clearly states that susceptibility to "variable ratio reinforcement" is what causes many action figure collectors to be overweight, not toy collecting itself. His points all hold their weight (no pun intended ). The main point both James and myself have been trying to make is that there is a relationship between spending addiction and overeating (not just toy collecting, but try to imagine a Venn diagram, toy collecting included in the same circle as overeating). Again, a relationship is NOT a cause. We're making an observation of similarities that, at times, go very much hand-in-hand. This doesn't mean, all toy collectors are overweight, because collecting toys is what causes them to be overweight. They are not mutually exclusive to one another, and you keep speaking as though we are claiming they are. That's just silly, and neither James or myself have implied that, you're simply inferring it. Now, claiming that susceptibility to "variable ratio reinforcement" (people needing more of a thing to achieve the same satisfaction that others achieve with less) causes people to be overweight. Sure. That makes perfect sense. Might this reinforcement also affect a persons eating habits? SURE!! That makes sense too. And that's exactly what both James and I are saying. Houston... we have a relationship.

"Similarity of behavioural and chemical addictions

Syndromes of behavioural addictions share features with those of substance abuse which may point to overlapping pathophysiologies (Table 1). The syndromes are disorders of impulsive control and self-regulation. They include obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), compulsive spending (including gambling), overeating (+/- bulimic binges), hyper-sexuality [whether straight (see Orford, 1978--compulsive promiscuity) or deviant (e.g. exhibitionism, paedophilia, fetishism)] kleptomania, and perhaps trichotillomania, tics and the Tourette syndrome, in which features (5) and (6) below may be lacking. The common aspects feature in the WHO definition of a dependence syndrome (Edwards, 1986):

(1) repeated urges to engage in a particular behavioural sequence that is counterproductive,
(2) mounting tension until the sequence is completed,
(3) rapid but temporary switching off of the tension by completing the sequence (a 'quick fix'),
(4) gradual return of the urge over hours, days of weeks,
(5) external cues for the urge unique to the particular addictive syndrome,
(6) secondary conditioning of the urge to both environmental and internal cues,
(7) similar strategies for relapse prevention: (a) training in impulse control by prolonged cue exposure in order to habituate cue-evoked craving and withdrawal and (b) stimulus control (environmental management)."



Marks, Isaac, Behavioural (non-chemical addictions, British Journal of Addiction, Vol 85(11), NOV, 1990. pp. 1389-1394. United Kingdom: Blackwell Publishing.

(Although the chart uses *bulimia* [BUL] as a column label, the article specifies *overeating (+/- bulimia)* (overeating with or without bulimic tendencies).

As you can see from the chart, chemical addictions, spending, and bulimia/overeating, share nearly all of the same *Addiction features* listed. Thus, the likelihood of chemical levels (including neurotransmitters such as dopamine) affecting spending and eating behaviors in unison, according to Marks' data chart, is greatly increased.

"Research has shown that many compulsive shoppers and spenders also suffer from depression and other mood disorders, substance abuse, or eating disorders. As with any addiction, the person becomes dependent on the behavior to relieve negative feelings that cause them distress and discomfort."

Berger, Vincent, Understanding a spending and shopping addiction. Psychologistanywhereanytime.com, 2005 (web).
http://www.psychologistanywhereanytime.com/addiction_psychologist/psychologist_addiction_spending.htm

Yes, habitual overeating is classified in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) as an "eating disorder."

"Research (late 2008) from Vanderbilt finds that those individuals labeled as novelty seekers by psychologists, face an uphill battle due to the way their brains process dopamine. The research reveals that novelty seekers have less of a particular type of dopamine receptor, which may lead them to seek out novel and exciting experiences - such as spending lavishly, taking risks and partying like there's no tomorrow."

http://digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C69153.html

See Dopamine Regulation

"According to one study,[26] cocaine, heroin, amphetamine, alcohol, and nicotine cause decreases in dopamine 2 receptor quantity. A similar association has been linked to food addiction, with a low availability of dopamine receptors present in people with greater food intake."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_receptor

James's key points were (1) people who succumb to addiction have fewer dopamine receptors, (2) these people need to overcompensate to achieve normal levels of satisfaction, and (3) [acknowledging my post that many toy collectors overspend] James added that many toy collectors are overweight, making an observation that all of the above are related to one another.

See How Can You Become Addicted to Behavior

"There are chemical messengers known as neurotransmitters that carry communication from your brain to throughout
your body. When you’re anxious, nervous, or feeling worried (like when self-critical thoughts start creeping in), you
get a flood of panic-inducing epinephrine that can feel like pure jet fuel. When something happens that makes you
feel especially good (like when you buy something!), you get a rush of incredibly satisfying neurotransmitters called
serotonins that feels GREAT.

Spending addiction causes “I’ve got to buy something NOW” behavior. Each “cha-ching!” of the cash register or
credit card “Approved!” message makes you feel so good, you get enough of a chemical rush to drown in. One
purchase is never enough. You want to feel that exhilarating “high” again, and again, and again--and keep those
nagging, distressing feelings at arm's length. And so you go out and buy something.

You’ve become intoxicated by your own behavior. The only thing that feels important is to be able to continue
spending--because shopping for and acquiring new things makes you feel so good about yourself, about your life,
about everything! Just like the definition for addiction says, you have surrendered yourself to a behavior that’s
habitual, obsessive, and impairs your vital functioning."

http://www.eap.partners.org/WorkLife/Addiction/Compulsive_Spending/What_is_Spending_Addiction.asp

So, what does this have to do with overeating and how does it link overspending to overeating, right? Well according to another article:

"Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that is primarily found in the brain. Serotonin is also a neurotransmitter, but 80 to 90 percent of serotonin is found in the gastrointestinal tract."

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5575149_dopamine-vs-serotonin.html

This demonstrates the influence neurotransmitters have on both eating and spending, and another validation of a link between the two.


Now, while James's ideas were said to be "nonsense" and "absurd," we can clearly see, that his argument (and mine) not only hold merit in their logic and reason, but are validated by several sources, including scientific journals and experts on the subject. (I could provide a few more, but it's getting late. ).

In research, they say you can never truly prove anything, you can only disprove them. You can only observe and record patterns and correlations, which are typically subject to argument and difference of opinion. Disproving is said to be possible because it is usually obvious when no pattern between one variable and another exists. Thus, "disproving" should be easier than "proving" anything. I've done the hard part, so I cordially open the floor for your disproval. I've shown you mine, now it's your turn to show me yours.

*Please note: I am not arguing for the sake of argument. Understanding human behavior (in others and ourselves) is central to understanding this problem which many people face, whether it involves out of control toy collecting or any other type of addictive spending. So, please, everyone, keep this in mind and let's keep it friendly!

Cheers!
-J

Great reply, HalJordanist. Hopefully people will actually read it, instead of just skimming over it and filling in the blanks themselves as a few people have been consistently doing throughout this thread.

Have faith, brother. I know it is a long-winded reply, but:



Ask and ye shall receive.

I think anyone with particular interest in this thread will read it through. Perspectives will either change, or we can all agree to disagree. After that, we can get back to the larger subject at hand. But again, I believe this particular aspect of the larger topic is important or I wouldn't have argued it. After all "knowing is half the battle."

Dusty and StrangePlanet, Thank you! I will get to your questions/comments just shortly.

-J

You are correct sir, discussing and debating is perfectly fine, I suppose my post was not worded correctly and should have been a tad more thought out and specific, I did not mean for you guys to "Drop everything!" I simply meant let's drop the subject about "who is right or who is being this or acting like that,"




No worries, you can answer/post when you can. I just hope life is getting better for you each and every day.


D.

well im glad you searched out all those links and things and took the time to post them all that was very cool thanks.

i dont agree and i think that he knew by posting something like that on a toy forum that it would cause offence and he may have worded it differently but it was still there.

post all the links you like but none actually prove anything about being overweight and toy collecting.

and a monkey may have a similar brain to a human but its not a human at the end of the day.

personally i think that toy collecting makes you underweight and sometimes you lose weight because of it

Well, you asked for evidence, and I gave it to you. It's a carefully constructed and rational argument backed by scientifically founded evidence. If you choose not to accept it, it's certainly a choice you're free to make. But we all know what Mark Twain said about arguments...



One more rhetorical question: If you're right, then why am I overweight?

Over eating
Stress
A predisposition upon birth
you're lazy
you like fatty food
your mother was an Italian cook
your calories burned per day doesn't match your carbohydrate intake
Big boned (okay, I can't say that one with a straight face, even I know that's a crock)
Maybe you're just... overweight?

haljordanist
your overweight because your a toy collector

im a lean mean superhero machine