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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:34 pm 
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whakojacko1976 wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is. This guy bought the prototypes and can do whatever he wants with them. He doesn't owe any of us anything. I can also understand his concerns about the pieces possibly being damaged and maybe even a loss in value (whatever it actually is) of the originals once copies are made. Yeah they are nice sculpts and yeah he could be a nice guy and let Stew cast them but it doesn't look like it will happen. His prerogative. The only thing I agree on is that his statement about a line needing rare items to thrive is a little ridiculous. I get where he was coming from but I've heard of too many people dropping lines because some items were too hard to find.


Yeah, I don't remember to many people jumping on the JLU bandwagon when news of the Holiday Hal figure broke. Quite a few people were claming they were done with the line and selling their collections off, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't think they're that great anyway. I'm perfectly happy with Lex and Darkseid already.


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
I don't see what the big deal is. This guy bought the prototypes and can do whatever he wants with them. He doesn't owe any of us anything. I can also understand his concerns about the pieces possibly being damaged and maybe even a loss in value (whatever it actually is) of the originals once copies are made. Yeah they are nice sculpts and yeah he could be a nice guy and let Stew cast them but it doesn't look like it will happen. His prerogative.


I'm not trying to bag on him...I just think it's a shame that he handled things as he did. Stew apparently didn't get a reply from him and instead found out it was a 'no' through this public message. And then that was so frustrating that it lead Stew to decide to cancel the plan for the community to buy the figure. It came down to the way he communicated...

As for value, does it make the Mona Lisa any less valuable that the image has been reproduced in books? Originals will always be worth more than copies. Not everyone can afford to buy originals, anyway!

But yes...he's free to keep them until someone pays 1000 bucks for them.


Last edited by DisneyBoy on Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:28 am 
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I actually think the seller is 100% correct in his reasoning. Its funny reading the comments blasting him for giving his reasons why he doesn't want HIS figures cast. It's this whole collectivism mind-set that I read that is really scary. He doesn't owe "the community" anything. And as we all should know by now, "the community" is just a term typically advanced/fallen back on by people not wanting to acknowledge this is an individual's property decision. People who usually can't win based on the individual merits of a case, wrap themselves up in "the community" argument.

It reminds me of the old Simpson's character Maud Flanders line "Won't somebody please think about the children?!?!?".

If YOU want the figures, buy them. Period. But please don't give the guy crap because he explained why he doesn't want them copied. That comes off as being petty.

I've collected many, many action figure lines over the years & spent high $ on scarce and one-of-a-kind items (preproduction items). Absolutely he is right when he says copies decrease interest & value in originals. Why? Because of the information, time, money, and means of conveyance that need to be contemplated/overcome in convincing someone to buy the original, when inexpensive copies are available. The Mona Lisa argument isn't a good comparison. The art world has thousands & thousands of people involved in authenticating, selling, restoring, etc. high end art work. And the art world has established systems in place. Action figure collectors have a much more limited system (websites, forums, Ebay). An item like Mona Lisa will only be sold through a reputable selling-house. A rare JLU item is going to be put on Ebay. That's it. Seller communicating to buyer, nothing else. So a seller has much more to overcome. . Yes AFA can assist with authentication (for packaged items mostly). But they are limited, and though Tom Derby of CollectInvest who they use to authenticate items is highly knowledgeable, there are items / lines he's not the most versed in. Plus, there is the substantial cost of AFA's services.

And high end items do indeed draw and continue interest in figure lines. It's the "rare" items that often keep a line desirable. At least in the vintage Star Wars community, Super Powers, Secret Wars, Master of the Universe, G.I. Joe, Transformers. Why do you think TWO television networks are investing lots of money in developing toy collecting/hunting shows? Because the high $ rare stuff creates excitement & interest (SyFy's "Toy Traveler" and Travel Channel's "Toy Hunters", each featuring well-known high-end action figure enthusiasts Shane Turgeon and Jordan Hembrough). You can be sure these shows won't be featuring guys walking into Target and buying widely available, mass release figures off the shelf. Anybody can do that.

So I can guarantee that anytime somebody posts an uninformed comment about high-end items NOT having an effect on interest in a toy line or copies (customs) NOT having a negative effect on high-end items....there are hundreds of experienced collectors who know better rolling their eyes..."collectively". :D

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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:38 pm 
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I'd like to reply to some ideas you've brought forth, jtd, though I want to be clear that I do respect that he's made up his mind. I'm okay with it. I'm not bagging on him :D

Quote:
Absolutely he is right when he says copies decrease interest & value in originals. Why? Because of the information, time, money, and means of conveyance that need to be contemplated/overcome in convincing someone to buy the original, when inexpensive copies are available.


If you have to convince someone to buy something you have, then chances are it's not as valuable as you think. Yes, value is subjective, obviously, but the I think it says a lot that no one here on these boards is jumping up and down, thrilled at the chance to buy these. They were listed at 1,000, and now 600...and I'm pretty sure no one is going to pay that much for them. Yes, the figures are still one-of-a-kind and unique and nice to look at, but his assessment of their value might be a little off, given the community's reaction (I'm just using the word community because I feel like that's what we are here).

And to use another example, since Mona Lisa didn't seem to work, what about Sericels? Companies like Disney and Warner Bros produce them so that people who love cels but can't afford originals can then buy cheaper versions at a fraction of the cost, and still get a cool shot of a lead character in a famous pose. It doesn't in any way affect the value of the original cels used in the picture though. Originals are originals, and fans can usually tell the difference between copies and originals.

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It's the "rare" items that often keep a line desirable. At least in the vintage Star Wars community, Super Powers, Secret Wars, Master of the Universe, G.I. Joe, Transformers.


I don't think people stayed interested in collecting MOTU because there was some super-rare figure they could never find. People buy what's available and what they can afford, and what holds meaning for them. These collectors of rare items represent a smaller portion of the fan-base, I think you'll find. If any toyline stands the test of time, it's because of nostalgia, sculpts and character variety, I'd say.

Quote:
Why do you think TWO television networks are investing lots of money in developing toy collecting/hunting shows?


Because they're always on the hunt for shows of the "Bet you didn't know people did XYZ! Aren't they freaks???" variety. Didn't know about shows pertaining to toy collecting, though. What are they called?

Quote:
So I can guarantee that anytime somebody posts an uninformed comment about high-end items NOT having an effect on interest in a toy line or copies (customs) NOT having a negative effect on high-end items....there are hundreds of experienced collectors who know better rolling their eyes..."collectively".


:? That came off a bit snarky. I'm not trying to make you sound less intelligent, so if that comment was directed at me, please extend the same courtesy. The bottom line is this: these prototypes will probably be more valuable in time than they are now, but they still may not be worth what the person who owns them paid, as we all have Luthors and Darkseids and they look just as good as these.

I don't think that in ten years, people will start collecting this line out of some huge interest to track down Holiday Hal or Prototype Luthor. They'll buy it because it'll still be affordable on Ebay, and there's a big character selection and they liked the shows. And if some people do start collecting purely to track down the most expensive/hard-to-find items, well they're a particular breed of collector just as rare as the items they hunt for.


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:44 am 
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What that guy should have done, since he doesn't seem to have any interest in owning these himself, is set them on ebay as a bid with a really high reserve and then he would have gotten an idea of what they're worth to potential bidders. Maybe someone would have passed 600 in a frenzied bidding war but when you start out saying Lex Luthor (which there are probably10 different ones that actually were made) is worth 1,000 bucks then you've turned people away.

And I don't believe these will increase in value as they age, especially the Darkseid figure. This is just my opinion of course but I think most people would see Destroyer Darkseid as an upgrade to that figure and he's much easier to obtain.


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:24 am 
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He's brought the starting bid on both of them down to $350.

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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:14 pm 
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tuning4k wrote:
He's brought the starting bid on both of them down to $350.

Now it sounds as if he's offering us a really good deal... Heeeyyy wait a minute...

:roll: :lol: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:59 pm 
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It never ceases to amaze me the complete lack of understanding people have for the ebay mentality. People like the bid process. Period. They want to get involved. If you really want to sell and have a minimum in mind you will take, put a reserve on it. But start the bid at 99cents or $2 or whatever low amount. But give people a chance to get involved.

That being said, if he's relisted them for that price he's lost what little credibility he had with me. Because he specifically said he'd keep them in his possession if he couldn't get his $500 back that he paid for each.

I still respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks that copies of an item affect the value of the original. If anything, for true collectors it can help drive up interest in the original. Because they can say they have the original rare item. The ones who would buy a copy are more often than not the ones who wouldn't or couldn't afford to pay for the original.

I'm not saying the guy can't do with the item whatever he wants - 100% his right. My point though is it seems he's gone about it in completely the wrong way. Both from an ebay mentality standpoint, and also in dealing with what should be his primary market.

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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:27 pm 
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I think he lost the "window of interest" on these. He probably needed to put them up on eBay back when we didn't know if we were ever going to see the release of the last six packs and people were paying large money for those production run samples of Firefly, Mongul & Dr. Destiny...ect. from China.

JLU seems all but done after the last six pack is released at the end of the year. Interest in JLU is at an all time low now. While they are "neat" and "unique" they are essentially just "mock ups" or "first drafts" of figures that saw retail release. If we had never gotten a Darkseid or a Business Suit Lex he probably would have gotten his $1000 Buy it Now price.

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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:27 am 
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How did this whole saga wrap-up? Did he sell them on Ebay in the end? I didn't see his last listing, so I don't know...


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:34 am 
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They did not sell on ebay.

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DC/WB is all like "Wonder Woman's too confusing for a movie!" and Marvel/Disney is all like "Here's a raccoon with a machine gun".


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:00 am 
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Meh. I've got Darkseids and I've got armored Lex. Minor differences aren't enough to get me to pay that kind of money (actually, NOTHING would get me to pay that kind of money, but I digress). I suspect many other JLU collectors feel the same way. So if this guy paid $500, he did not make a sound investment.


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:55 am 
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Well, I do like the figures and I'm sure he's happy to have them...even if the way he tried to sell them makes it seem as though he was only treating them as an "investment", he probably is a JLU fan :)


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 Post subject: Re: Old JLU prototypes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:00 pm 
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texgnome1 wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me the complete lack of understanding people have for the ebay mentality. People like the bid process. Period. They want to get involved. If you really want to sell and have a minimum in mind you will take, put a reserve on it. But start the bid at 99cents or $2 or whatever low amount. But give people a chance to get involved.

That being said, if he's relisted them for that price he's lost what little credibility he had with me. Because he specifically said he'd keep them in his possession if he couldn't get his $500 back that he paid for each.

I still respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks that copies of an item affect the value of the original. If anything, for true collectors it can help drive up interest in the original. Because they can say they have the original rare item. The ones who would buy a copy are more often than not the ones who wouldn't or couldn't afford to pay for the original.

I'm not saying the guy can't do with the item whatever he wants - 100% his right. My point though is it seems he's gone about it in completely the wrong way. Both from an ebay mentality standpoint, and also in dealing with what should be his primary market.



agreed - only problem is proving you have an original proto and not a custom. there's alot of superior talent out there...

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