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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:30 am 
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Bryan Long wrote:
That JLU picture is amazing (particularly when I realize I have them all, and many multiples of them), but I don't understand why Plastic Man's girder is so far away from Plas.


He doesn't want people to recognize him. He can't make a girder of himself right next to himself haha


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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:19 am 
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ian5555 wrote:
Well, it just amazes me that any fan would look at this line and think "failure".

As far as number of different characters made I can't think of a line that comes close to it and a few "hard to get" not rare figures that you can get for $50-100 make it a failed line??? LOL.....ok.


fball13z wrote:
Anyone that looks at that wallpaper and still thinks Mattel has "cheated" or "screwed" us, will never be happy, JLU may not be a perfect toyline (none ever are), but it will go done was one of my fav toylines EVER


MoMoney wrote:
Yep, just one disaster after another.

Just curious - how many different DC characters saw retail pegs when Kenner and Hasbro had the license? Twenty, at best?


I never said it was a failed line due to the amount of characters they made. Don't put words in my mouth. But I agree with Ham Salad & Ricky, the 80's were a different time for toys. Kenner did put out a pretty complete line for BTAS & Super Powers. Probably did pave the way for figure lines now. Had their been more characters for BTAS & had they not lost the license, I'm sure they would have continued to make BTAS figures. Remember they were still making figures at the time they lost the license. I think the deal was, they had a year to release anything they made before they lost the license for good. That's pretty much when we got Scarface, Talia, cartoon accurate Rhas Al Ghul, Commisioner Gordon, Alfred. Just look at how many different Star Wars figures they made in the 70/80's. It was just a slower process to release new figures in the 80's. Every figure was individual with new sculpts. Kenner didn't do it like Mattel does & reuse the same bucks, add a new head & paint application. You do realize how cheap these figures are produce from Mattel? Of course they were able to pump out 100's of different characters. But in reality they didn't pump out hundreds of characters. They produced five characters with different heads & paint. My BTAS/STAS all look great on display because of the total individuality of each figure. Say what you want, but it's the truth. JLU figures on display look very stagnant due to the fact that most of them use the same bucks.

Which leads me to part of where I feel Mattel made their mistakes. My Kenner BTAS figures are still standing upright after being displayed in a showcase since the mid 90's. Say that about you JLU figure now or especially in 20 years & I will laugh in your face. If any of you have the original 7 that came out with the stands on the blue cards take a look at them & compare them to the later released version that Mattel kept whoring out in the 3 packs or 6 packs. Yeah, the plastic they used was much better quality on those earlier figures. I collected Max Factory Guyver Models years ago. I missed out on some of them & didn't want to pay top dollar for them. So I bought they chinese boot legs that were on ebay for some. They were usually hit or miss, sometimes the characters were smaller than the original molds for whatever reason. The vinyl used was always inferior compared to what Max Factory used. Mattel's figures after the first couple years remind me of chinese bootlegs. The plastic quality just kept on getting more inferior & the paint & applications were terrible. Combine the with the crappy distribution & all the price hikes..... Mattel dropped the ball on this line. I started late collecting BTAS. Many of the villians were already out & long gone. I had to pay top dollar for many of those figures in the package at comic book stores or shows only to destroy their value because I opened them up. It was before the time of ebay that I could just buy loose figures cheaper. When Harley Quinn came out she was impossible to find. As I stated before I became close frineds with a girl who worked in toys at Walmart & that's how I got her. But you know what? I always look back at those figures with a great fondness. It's not the rarity & hard to find figures that made the JLU a bitter thing for me. Because I was lucky & found all those rare figures when they came out besides STAS Aquaman. I didn't even know any of these figures were rare until looking at this forum. It's terribly made cheap produced figures & the constant blunders & debacles by Mattel that left the bitter taste in my mouth about the JLU line. I don't have to go over them because you all should know the history. IMO Kenner did a much better job with the DC license over all & producing actual quality figures than Mattel ever did.


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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:23 am 
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Ham Salad wrote:
MoMoney wrote:
Just curious - how many different DC characters saw retail pegs when Kenner and Hasbro had the license? Twenty, at best?

They definitely made more than 20 different characters, though, as I counted 25 unique characters in their animated Batman line alone. Add in the comic lines, and that number gets much bigger.

I was exaggerating. Still, the number pales in comparison to what Mattel offered.

Ham Salad wrote:
The thinking of making every character under the sun didn't really kick in until the late 90's/early 00's, with Kenner's Star Wars, and later, Toy Biz's Marvel Legends.

And I completely disagree with this statement. ToyBiz was cranking out super obscure characters in its five-inch Marvel line for years (La Lunatica? Shard?), and that started in the early-to-mid '90s. Playmates was cranking out wave after wave of TMNT, most of which were completely new sculpts (even of the Turtles themselves), with tons of random, new mutants tossed in every wave.

Ham Salad wrote:
but Hasbro kept Animated Batman going well into the first season of Justice League. I was still buying new Hasbro product in 2003.

And of those figures they were producing in 2003, how many new characters were you seeing per year?

Sorry - if this comes across as irritated, it's not meant to be toward you. Just the attitude that Mattel has been such a disgrace to the DC license when they're actually probably the best partner that DC ever had always strikes me as absurdist.

Clayface wrote:
You do realize how cheap these figures are produce from Mattel? Of course they were able to pump out 100's of different characters. But in reality they didn't pump out hundreds of characters. They produced five characters with different heads & paint. My BTAS/STAS all look great on display because of the total individuality of each figure. Say what you want, but it's the truth. JLU figures on display look very stagnant due to the fact that most of them use the same bucks.

Do you think it would be any different if Hasbro had the license now? Their Marvel Universe figures are all sharing the same bucks. Their Marvel Legends figures are all sharing the same bucks. The buck that was made for Black Widow from the Toys R Us two-packs (with the sculpted zipper) has been used at least four times in the past two years - Black Widow, Madam Hydra, Madam Masque, and Mystique - and they've only made five or six women in that time.

Hasbro made unique sculpts back then because action figures actually sold back then. Don't you remember walking into Toys R Us - you know, when Toys R Us was actually a toy store - and seeing the HUGE aisle devoted to action figures? Both sides of the aisle, completely covered? When your product isn't selling like it used to, you cut corners.


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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:06 pm 
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MoMoney wrote:
Hasbro made unique sculpts back then because action figures actually sold back then. Don't you remember walking into Toys R Us - you know, when Toys R Us was actually a toy store - and seeing the HUGE aisle devoted to action figures? Both sides of the aisle, completely covered? When your product isn't selling like it used to, you cut corners.


BINGO.

I just got a couple of the newest SW Clone figures. And for the first time in YEARS, they had no knees. The Golden Age of action figures is done.

It's hard to watch a hobby whither away gradually. I've seen it with comics and now I'm really starting to see it with action figures. :(

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Clayface wrote:

I never said it was a failed line due to the amount of characters they made. Don't put words in my mouth.


And no one ever claimed you did.

You called the line and what Mattel did half-assed. Clearly as my posted proved it most certainly was not half-assed.

Some people will focus on what they didn't get and some people on what they did. I'm a glass half full type of guy but I fail to see how anyone could look at this amazing line and broogle about it constantly like some people have done here the last few years. I guess that is what the Internet is for. Fandom claiming they were screwed because a company failed to grant their every whim. Are there things I would have done differently? Sure. But I choose to focus on what they did give me and that was an awesome line.

And what MoMoney said above, nail/head and stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:09 pm 
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MoMoney wrote:
I was exaggerating. Still, the number pales in comparison to what Mattel offered.


Yes, it does pale, but they are two different kinds of lines. Kenner/Hasbro's DC lines were kids' lines with collector appeal, while Mattel's DC lines are collectors' lines with kid appeal. One gets tons of the main hero in different costumes with some other characters, the other gets tons of different characters and some different costumes.

(Heck, even Mattel makes Kenner-style lines! Justice League (not JLU), the current evergreen Batman line, The Batman, and Brave and the Bold are all good examples.)

MoMoney wrote:
And I completely disagree with this statement. ToyBiz was cranking out super obscure characters in its five-inch Marvel line for years (La Lunatica? Shard?), and that started in the early-to-mid '90s. Playmates was cranking out wave after wave of TMNT, most of which were completely new sculpts (even of the Turtles themselves), with tons of random, new mutants tossed in every wave.


True, those lines did exist; I forgot to include them. Toy Biz and Playmates always had a tendency to make all-encompassing lines, and it worked for them. (Star Trek, X-Men, TMNT, etc.) But apart from those companies, I don't think we saw that kind of line very often, at least, not lines that stuck around for very long.

I guess I should have said that it seems that way of thinking didn't come about at Hasbro until Star Wars really took off in the mid-90's. I guess Kenner had established that Batman (and DC by extension) was a line where the main hero would be done several times over, and villains would be sparse. That's the plan they had for The Dark Knight Collection, and it worked for them. Whether we like it or not, it kept Batman going for ten plus years. (But it didn't really work when applied to other lines, like Superman.)

When Kenner/Hasbro did try a broader line, like the 6"-ish DC Super Heroes or Total Justice, those lines fizzled after only a handful of waves. They would probably have been more successful now. (But they'd need to have 14 points of articulation, and no gimmicky accessories.)

MoMoney wrote:
And of those figures they were producing in 2003, how many new characters were you seeing per year?


Not many. I'm pretty sure all of 2003 was repaints of old molds as store exclusives, though 2002 still had a few new characters in the TRU four packs. But by 2001ish Hasbro had already determined they weren't going to renew their license with DC, so they probably didn't devote the resources to the line, since it was on the way out.

MoMoney wrote:
Sorry - if this comes across as irritated, it's not meant to be toward you. Just the attitude that Mattel has been such a disgrace to the DC license when they're actually probably the best partner that DC ever had always strikes me as absurdist.


No worries. I agree that Mattel has been a great partner for DC, despite several problematic lines and quality issues. That Justice League has gone on for nearly ten years is a testament to that.

However, I have to disagree with the notion (not necessarily yours) that the Kenner/Hasbro years weren't as good simply because they did not produce the breadth of characters like Mattel has. The Kenner/Hasbro lines were products of the market at the time. That we got the amount of non-Batman characters from them that we did was impressive.

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:28 pm 
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ian5555 wrote:
Clayface wrote:

I never said it was a failed line due to the amount of characters they made. Don't put words in my mouth.


And no one ever claimed you did.

You called the line and what Mattel did half-assed. Clearly as my posted proved it most certainly was not half-assed.

Some people will focus on what they didn't get and some people on what they did. I'm a glass half full type of guy but I fail to see how anyone could look at this amazing line and broogle about it constantly like some people have done here the last few years. I guess that is what the Internet is for. Fandom claiming they were screwed because a company failed to grant their every whim. Are there things I would have done differently? Sure. But I choose to focus on what they did give me and that was an awesome line.

And what MoMoney said above, nail/head and stuff.


Do you hear me complaining that I didn't get certain characters produced so Mattel failed me? No because that's not what this is about to me. It doesn't matter if they made 500 different figures. The line is still half @$$ed by the quality of the plastic used, the cheap paint, the terrible paint applications, the poor distribution & case packaging through out the line, the skyrocketing prices for the line, & the fact they used the same bucks over & over so they didn't even bother trying to make characters the proper size. I guess I can sum this up on my perspective by saying I would have rather had quality over quantity.


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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Ham Salad wrote:
MoMoney wrote:
I was exaggerating. Still, the number pales in comparison to what Mattel offered.

Yes, it does pale, but they are two different kinds of lines.

And two different eras. Not exactly apples to apples. But even the playing field, and...

Here's Mattel:
Image

And here's Kenner/Hasbro:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:31 pm 
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I partially agree with both sides, while I am very grateful to Mattel for getting so many cahracters made. I am also not too happy about the paint quality, distribution, plastic quality, and horrible prices, (yes the line got more expensive because of oil prices going up and also that the line was just losing it's steam with mom's and kids.) But come on, $40.79 for one "new" figure and two re-releases, that's just silly. I know I bash Mattel quite often, but I like to think I do recognize the cool stuff they have done just as much. IMO I think the only other companies that maybe could have done better in terms of paint quality and plastic quality is either DC Direct or Bandai (have you seen how good Bandai's paint applications and plastic quality is? DC Direct it is the same thing, only the prices are not as inviting.) Either way again I am grateful for all the awesome stuff Mattel has done for JLU, but I do recognize they also have done a few chump things as well. But like ian5555, I try to be a half gass full type guy too (even though it probably doesn't appear as such most of the time, lol.)
Mattel is 55% cool, 45% "meh" ;)


D.

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:46 pm 
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tuning4k wrote:
Joe G. wrote:
At least 33.

Image


34 when you remember the mail-away Clark Kent.


He asked how many "saw retail pegs" :-)

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:56 am 
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Wow, talk about a blast from the past Ricky! I completely forgot that Mattel made Secret wars figures. They've been doing the same cheap way out on Superhero lines since the 80's.

Look at the Kenner Super Powers line. Every character is almost molded & sculpted to be unique.They didn't just paint Batman, Robin, Aquaman, etc's details on. Those torsos are different molds for each character with the details sculpted. Now let's look at Mattel's cheap Secret Wars line. Same crap system using the same bucks with different heads & painted on details, just like JLU is now. Mattel was even taking the same short cuts bitd when action figure lines were big sellers. You know I always had the same feeling about the Secret wars line as I do JLU. I loved it because I got figures like Ironman, Spiderman, Hobgoblin, & the Black costume Spiderman. But I hated it because even as a kid I noticed not much work went into the production of these cheaply made figures compared to my other toys. I remember wanting, Doom, Wolverine, Magneto, but they so looked terrible. So when my grandparents took my to the store to pick out a new figure, I bought a GI Joe instead. Plus if you played with your Secret wars figures one time the paint was flaking off. Does this sound familar? My JLU have been known to lose paint if I just store them in a box next to each other. Everyone seemed to forget the 3 3/4 GI Joe line. How many different individual characters were in that? Sure there was some repaints of the cobra officers for vehicles, etc.... But there were 100's of unique figures released in that line. I really think there is a lot of proof that Kenner/Hasbro is much better at coming out with quality action figure lines than Mattel. If it isn't Barbie or a Hot Wheels, Mattel just takes the cheap, short cut, half @$$ed approach at it. Sorry the glass is not half full when you REALLY look at it.


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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:23 am 
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Ham Salad wrote:

Yes, it does pale, but they are two different kinds of lines. Kenner/Hasbro's DC lines were kids' lines with collector appeal, while Mattel's DC lines are collectors' lines with kid appeal.


Some good points Ham however, I completely disagree with this statement at least when it comes to JLU. It was most definitely a kid line with collector appeal first. DC Universe, most definitely a collector line with kid appeal.

I think alot of collectors (not you mind you) don't look at this from a business perspective and that is their problem. The plan FACT is there are A LOT more kids then there are collectors. It's simple numbers. You go after the group with the highest return on investment and that is kids. Now I will say I agree with what people have said that the "Golden Age" of action figures is gone but companies are still going to want to sell action figures to kids as much as they can. It's just smart business.

Kid see character on TV, kid want toy
Kid not see character on TV, kid not want toy

That is what happened with JLU. I'm amazed it stayed around as long as it did and I would bet that kids seeing Batman and Superman helped with that just a little bit but a lot of that I am sure was the collectors of course keeping it going. A lot of times it takes both to be sucessful.


Clayface wrote:
My JLU have been known to lose paint if I just store them in a box next to each other. Everyone seemed to forget the 3 3/4 GI Joe line. How many different individual characters were in that? Sure there was some repaints of the cobra officers for vehicles, etc.... But there were 100's of unique figures released in that line. I really think there is a lot of proof that Kenner/Hasbro is much better at coming out with quality action figure lines than Mattel. If it isn't Barbie or a Hot Wheels, Mattel just takes the cheap, short cut, half @$$ed approach at it. Sorry the glass is not half full when you REALLY look at it.


Maybe you have figures made on Monday and Friday. My whole collection was clearly made on a Wednesday I think as they are awesome. If I put them in storage each goes in a zip lock bag. Anyone who is worried about paint should never store any figures next to each other not protected. Any line will lose paint eventually doing that. I think I will display a glass half full next to them though, you can display a glass half empty so every time you look at your collection you can curse Mattel for making such a halfassed line and hit them with your negative waves. Honestly the only thing Mattel ever did with the line that urked me was the price point. When singles and 3 packs almost doubled that kind of sucked. Other than that, amazing line, quality product imo.

And yes, Gi Joe was somewhere around 500 figures but 200 or so unique is what I have on the streets. Pretty amazing company for JLU to be in when you think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:25 am 
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red Ricky wrote:
I don't think the ending was a cliffhanger per se. It was more like a freeze frame type of deal. Like in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid. I mean, now that I think about it, the whole thing was like a cross between the Godfather & Butch/Sundance, but with Vampires, Lawyers & Monsters. Anyways, just an opinion.

Either way, I'm told that Angel the Comic Book picks up where the series ended. So that might be fun to read. But you know... when all was said and done... Doyle, Darla, Fred, Cordelia, Lindsey and Wes, were all dead. And Gunn was about to die (or be turned.) So the only fates left "up in the air" were Angel's & Spike's. And those guys could go on forever.

Granted, James looked a bit old when I last saw him (Supernatural); but if Bones is any indication, David preserves very well.
Yeah, but they can't do a Buffyverse movie without Spike. He's too important to the mythos.
Quote:
I loved the Season 1 finale but found the Season 2 ending too contrived. Season 3 was a welcomed change of pace after that Beaver mess. And I liked that. The thing about the ending was that, well… people expected Veronica & Logan to end up back together. And of course, were disappointed when it didn’t happen. I, on the other hand, always felt that Logan was a little bit too smug. A fratboy tool if you will. Don’t get me wrong, I liked that about him; but I also knew that Veronica would eventually get over him and move on. Much like she did with Duncan. Which is what smart girls normally do with their high-school sweethearts, and stuff.
Actually, I hated Logan too and was glad they didn't wind up together. Season 2's finale had it's fault but it at least felt like an actual ending instead of leaving so many balls up in the air.
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Well, I only reacted like that because you took some my favorite shows (mostly mentioned in passing) and completely decimated them. Plus, you didn’t mention what your favorite shows were. So it kinda felt more like a targeted attack than a discussion. If you had countered with some shows of your own… Well, I guess “the discussion” would’ve felt more balanced.
I LOVE Buffy, Angel, JLU, and Veronica Mars. The first three are probably my favorite TV shows ever. My point was not to bash them but to point out that almost ALL serialized genre shows have crappy finales and that's why the last episode of Lost was so good. I've NEVER seen a genre show resolve all of the big questions well and Lost instead opted to make it about the characters and have some of the mysteries be left unsolved. That was the best way to do things in my mind and was the reason it was the best finale ever.

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:26 am 
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I think the only thing that's come back from the dead more often than JLU is this argument about JLU. :roll:

By now, haven't we come to the point where we can all acknowledge that both sides make valid points? I suppose there was a time when I made more negative comments than positive ones about JLU, but that time has passed for me. Now that I'm not constantly hunting figures, the frustration is gone. My overall lasting impression of the line is positive. The greatest action figure line ever, IMHO. Great, if simple, sculpts in general. Massive character selection. BTAS was pretty much equally good, but a product of its time, and therefore different. But to really say that there wasn't an issue with the quality of plastic & paint, especially at the price we eventually had to pay, is either denial, or arguing for the sake of arguing.

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 Post subject: Re: SEPTEMBER 17th - JLU Vandal Savage 3-pack
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:21 am 
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MoMoney wrote:
And I completely disagree with this statement. ToyBiz was cranking out super obscure characters in its five-inch Marvel line for years (La Lunatica? Shard?), and that started in the early-to-mid '90s. Playmates was cranking out wave after wave of TMNT, most of which were completely new sculpts (even of the Turtles themselves), with tons of random, new mutants tossed in every wave.


And what's wrong with La Lunatica? :lol: She was a pretty important part of the team toward the end of X-Men 2099. I'm actually hoping that she, along with the others show up in the MU line. The already have spidey 2099. So neener neener. :P

And Clayface, say what you will about Secret Wars, but those suckers were sturdy. They could take direct shots to the head from my BB gun with not a scratch. :mrgreen: It still is one of my favorite toylines ever.


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