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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:03 am 
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batfink wrote:
Pretending that Mattel is maliciously trying to rip you off may make you feel better about buying stolen figures, and that's great if it works for you.

This is the thing that REALLY bothers me. It takes brass balls to complain about Mattel's supposed immorality about ripping people off from people who traffic in stolen merchandise. The people who claim Mattel is ripping them off the most are the ones who are actually ripping MATTEL off. Talk about projection. Irony just commited suicide. It couldn't compete with reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:48 am 
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I think that argument is all well and good but imo the expectation for a "niche" line they kept alive to appease a few collectors is a little ridiculous. This isn't Barbie or Hot Wheels to Mattel it's most likely a line that has barely broken even for years so why put your heart and soul into something that has most likely very little return on investment?

Honestly it doesn't matter what Mattel does. These could be the best quality figures ever and people would still find something to whine and complain about.

I swear you'd think this is the next post coming. "Well, I tested my JLU figures last week and they did not stand up to a nuclear bomb, wtf Mattel bad quality, you suck"

The stolen figures debate is interesting to me though. Teh irony is quite funny as others have pointed out. When Mattel was still making figures it was "Support the Line" now it's F Mattel, they canceled the line I'm buying stolen figures now that I got what I want and they are canceling it. I'm not condemning people for it, hell I bought a BB. It's long been my standing that the figures cost too much so I can sort of understand this but I'm buying the Toyman pack and done. If I can get a Guy Gardner for cheap on Ebay instead of paying $30 to get it I sure will.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:28 am 
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They may be stolen, but considering most of them seem to have flaws, and none of the ones with capes/vests are being sold intact, it's also possible that they're factory rejects and the seller picked them up from the trash, or even paid a nominal fee for them. As I said, I'm buying some from him, but I'm also buying the same figures from Mattel, so I'm going to firmly straddle the fence here. Mattel's not losing any of my money -- I'm just getting extras of figures I wouldn't otherwise get extras of.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:19 am 
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Seriously? All of you need to get off your Moral high horse! I'm sure you are all just a bunch of saints :roll: It's not like we broke into the Mattel factory & stole these toys ourselves. We are paying for them. Mattel is a billion dollar company, us buying a few $3 figures from China is not going to bankrupt them. Ok, all of you who think you are so high & mighty on your stupid soapbox preaching! Have any of you ever downloaded an MP3, rented a movie, bought a used movie or game? Don't even answer that because I'm sure that I'll just hear some BS answer on here, but you will really be answering YES in your mind! Technically you are taking money out of the music & movie companies pockets by doing so. You're stealing entertainment & paying a third party instead of who produced the product. By watching that rented copy of Spiderman from Netflix, you are robbing Sony of the $20 you would have paid for the movie. Oh you are such a terrible person, Bwahahaha! The statement I made is just as foolish as what you are all saying about these toys " robbing Mattel of their profit. " People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:29 am 
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Does anyone even know these items are stolen or is it just an assumption? For the level and volume that show up on eBay... that doesn't speak well for the factory security and loss prevention does it?

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:47 am 
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The fact that Mattel has two different websites to buy figures with two different shipping rates makes my point about them being more inept than malicious.

Wouldn't it make more sense, financially and otherwise, to just have one single website to purchase figures? The waste of manpower, IT resources, the adverse experience it has on the fans, just doesn't make sense but it is what it is.

I know buying from Asian sellers is a complicated issue, and I'm not saying I'm right. This is my feeling: when I can, I buy American. It may sound silly, but Mattel is an American company and Batman, Superman, etc. are American intellectual property. Those Asian sellers are paying zero dollars to Warner Brothers, Mattel, or to the U.S. Government in taxes. Mattel is not the only American company China is ripping off. This is going on in almost every industry.

I know it sucks that Mattel is shipping the manufacturing jobs overseas. But as long as the figure is offered in the United States, and I can find it at retail or online, I reward Mattel with my money for producing the figures that I have harped over and over on the message boards for them to finally produce.

The way I have been dealing with the overall low quality of Mattel's figures has been curbing back my spending on their products. Now that JLU and Movie Masters are done, I'm quitting DC 6" line. I'll buy future Movie Masters and the occasional Batman Legacy figure if they look great.

At these prices, I would rather save my money on one great piece on occasion from DC Direct, Hot Toys, or Sideshow. The upcoming Medicom Dark Knight 6" figure is amazing looking, and is the cost of about four Mattel figures. For me, it's worth saving for. Same with the Square Enix Batman line.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:07 am 
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I seem to have struck a nerve. :D

Clayface wrote:
Seriously? All of you need to get off your Moral high horse! I'm sure you are all just a bunch of saints :roll: It's not like we broke into the Mattel factory & stole these toys ourselves. We are paying for them. Mattel is a billion dollar company, us buying a few $3 figures from China is not going to bankrupt them.

From the guide "So You've Decided To Steal Cable" (with apologies to The Simpsons): "Mattel is just a big faceless corporation so that makes it okay!"
Quote:
Ok, all of you who think you are so high & mighty on your stupid soapbox preaching! Have any of you ever downloaded an MP3, rented a movie, bought a used movie or game? Don't even answer that because I'm sure that I'll just hear some BS answer on here, but you will really be answering YES in your mind! Technically you are taking money out of the music & movie companies pockets by doing so. You're stealing entertainment & paying a third party instead of who produced the product. By watching that rented copy of Spiderman from Netflix, you are robbing Sony of the $20 you would have paid for the movie. Oh you are such a terrible person, Bwahahaha! The statement I made is just as foolish as what you are all saying about these toys " robbing Mattel of their profit. " People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

Can you say "false equivalency"? I knew you could. I think you've just lost the argument and you know it. The idea that buying stolen goods is the same as renting a movie or buying a used one from a store or Amazon seller is (pardon me for being frank here) stupid. The music and movie company have already SOLD those DVDs and CDs. They made their profit already, it wasn't stolen. As for Netflix, the Home Video companies get a portion of the rental money through a contract with Netflix (which is why you never see stuff that was just released for rental). Netflix actually MAKES them money, they don't lose it. Mattel really shouldn't be taking business advice from someone who knows nothing about how business works.

And no, I've never pirated or illegally downloaded a movie and (just for poops and giggles) I haven't rented a movie since the VCR era and I only buy new DVDs (as if as if either of those things mattered). You can choose to believe me or not, reality is impervious to your rants.

Van Statten wrote:

Does anyone even know these items are stolen or is it just an assumption?

Yes, Mattel has stated in interviews that any time you see an auction in China or Hong Kong for stuff that hasn't been released that it has been stolen from the factory.
Quote:
For the level and volume that show up on eBay... that doesn't speak well for the factory security and loss prevention does it?
I never said Mattel wasn't completely incompetent. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:21 am 
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Fone Bone wrote:
I never said Mattel wasn't completely incompetent. :P

Evidently not...

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:43 am 
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Oh so just because Mattel said they are stolen you believe them? Like they never lied to us before :roll: Just read through my posts and many on this forum & you'll see the past lies that Mattel has spewed out at us that were proven. Yes, you did strike a nerve. Well not you personally, But the ignorance of statements did. Plus people that act like they are holier than though always bug me. Like you've never done anything wrong in your life? But that is not even the point. As I stated before, it's not like I am going to the Mattel factory, breaking in & stealing these toys. So I am not doing anything wrong. When I was a kid, My dad was good friends with a girl who worked at Kenner. She was pretty high up on the corporate ladder. She used to always bring me free toys of unreleased samples or had minor flaws that they felt they couldn't sell. The company gave them to employees to do what they wanted with them. Are you sure that's not the case with these JLU figures? I realize what Toy Guru " claims " but is he over in the factory in China 24 hours a day supervising that these defects or samples aren't given to the employees? No! IMO There is no way an employee could " sneak out " as many figures as they have on ebay. Or I agree with Van, they have absolutely NO security whatsoever.

To Batfink & the keeping the money in the American economy? You are supporting a company like Mattel who could care less about keeping the money in the American economy or else they wouldn't have sweatshop factories in China making their toys for them. Greedy companies like mattel only care about the overall coin in their pocket. They could produce these in the US, but the production & what they would have to pay employees would make a huge cut into their profit. If these JLU figures were produced in the US, They would probably have to mark the toys up to $30 a 3 pack for them to make the profit they want. Oh wait they already have & still are paying cheap production costs & wages in China :roll: Yes I know it's business & that's the way it works..... making as much profit as you can. I don't look at them as any less crooked than anyone you all are claiming is a thief!


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:59 am 
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Van Statten wrote:
Does anyone even know these items are stolen or is it just an assumption? For the level and volume that show up on eBay... that doesn't speak well for the factory security and loss prevention does it?

If you watch Toy Hunter on the Travel Channel, it's mentioned on multiple occasions how Mattel, Kenner and Hasbro allow employees to take product home. How brand managers would leave stuff on halls for any employee to take. And how, as a result of that, plenty of employees ended up with "never seen before" cases and cases product. Trust me. Or better yet, watch the show. It will be on tomorrow. Or if you can't wait, YouTube the Pilot. It will tell you the story of how Kenner Employees took Star Wars stuff from their offices and exchanged them for Comics, back in the day. You'll also see how the story repeats itself with the M.A.S.K., Jurassic Park, Thundercats, Batman and Bill & Ted stuff. And the same thing goes on, and on, and on, in plenty of other episodes.

So in that regard, there's precedent... there's history if you will, about Toy Companies being indifferent and allowing empolyees to take stuff home and resell it. The evidence is just overwhelming.

In the case of the Chinese, it's probably easy for people to assume these are stolen. You know... 'cause poor people steal, and minorities steal, and poor minorities... well, those steal twice as much. :roll: But yeah, if you ask me, I think it's possible this is an assumption people are making. People forget that Mattel doesn't own these Chinese Factories. They are subcontracted to produce, say... one hundred thousand carded figures. Anything that's defective... anything that was discarded... anything that was produced while machines were being reset... that's just factory waste to dispose as the factory sees fit. All Mattel cares about is getting their orders fulfilled on the time, and at the standards they requested. Everything else is waste-by-product. And if Mattel is not on the hook for disposing of this waste, then they probably have little to no say as to what happens to the rejected figures. And if the Factory is on the hook for disposing of the rejects... and they have to pay the State for dumping all this useless plastic in some lot... and if that's the case, then it's probably easier to just let employees "take the trash home". In other words, the less pounds of trash they have to move and process at a waste facility, the better it is for the Factory.

So yeah... these figures could be stolen, but they could just as easily be factory rejects that employees were allowed to take home. People will see what they want to see. But in the end there's no way to know unless you ask. And even then, you could be lied to.

Either way, let's not forget the fact that foreign contries don't have a monopoly on stealing. Any Ebay item you buy from an American seller could've, just as easily, "walked away" from a retailer's backroom; or "fallen" from some truck. In all honesty, you never know.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:28 am 
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red Ricky wrote:
If you watch Toy Hunter on the Travel Channel, it's mentioned on multiple occasions how Mattel, Kenner and Hasbro allow employees to take product home. How brand managers would leave stuff on halls for any employee to take. And how, as a result of that, plenty of employees ended up with "never seen before" cases and cases product. Trust me. Or better yet, watch the show. It will be on tomorrow. Or if you can't wait, YouTube the Pilot. It will tell you the story of how Kenner Employees took Star Wars stuff from their offices and exchanged them for Comics, back in the day. You'll also see how the story repeats itself with the M.A.S.K., Jurassic Park, Thundercats, Batman and Bill & Ted stuff. And the same thing goes on, and on, and on, in plenty of other episodes.

So in that regard, there's precedent... there's history if you will, about Toy Companies being indifferent and allowing empolyees to take stuff home and resell it. The evidence is just overwhelming.
But ToyGuru has actually SAID these particular toys were stolen. That's good enough for me.
Quote:

In the case of the Chinese, it's probably easy for people to assume these are stolen. You know... 'cause poor people steal, and minorities steal, and poor minorities... well, those steal twice as much. :roll:
C'Mon, man, racism? I promised myself if I was ever accused of racism I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand like so many people who are accused of bigotry do but the race of the thieves literally never crossed my mind.
Quote:
Either way, let's not forget the fact that foreign contries don't have a monopoly on stealing. Any Ebay item you buy from an American seller could've, just as easily, "walked away" from a retailer's backroom; or "fallen" from some truck. In all honesty, you never know.

Absolutely correct. Great point.
Clayface wrote:
Oh so just because Mattel said they are stolen you believe them?
Yes.
Quote:
Like they never lied to us before Just read through my posts and many on this forum & you'll see the past lies that Mattel has spewed out at us that were proven. Yes, you did strike a nerve. Well not you personally, But the ignorance of statements did. Plus people that act like they are holier than though always bug me. Like you've never done anything wrong in your life?
Nice strawman there.
Quote:
But that is not even the point. As I stated before, it's not like I am going to the Mattel factory, breaking in & stealing these toys. So I am not doing anything wrong. When I was a kid, My dad was good friends with a girl who worked at Kenner. She was pretty high up on the corporate ladder. She used to always bring me free toys of unreleased samples or had minor flaws that they felt they couldn't sell. The company gave them to employees to do what they wanted with them. Are you sure that's not the case with these JLU figures? I realize what Toy Guru " claims " but is he over in the factory in China 24 hours a day supervising that these defects or samples aren't given to the employees? No! IMO There is no way an employee could " sneak out " as many figures as they have on ebay. Or I agree with Van, they have absolutely NO security whatsoever.
So which is it? Do they have sucky security or are they duplicitous liars about what was stolen? Keep this in mind before you answer: they literally can't both be true. If you don't really care which argument you make to say Mattel sucks there is an inherent flaw in your reasoning.
Quote:

To Batfink & the keeping the money in the American economy? You are supporting a company like Mattel who could care less about keeping the money in the American economy or else they wouldn't have sweatshop factories in China making their toys for them. Greedy companies like mattel only care about the overall coin in their pocket. They could produce these in the US, but the production & what they would have to pay employees would make a huge cut into their profit. If these JLU figures were produced in the US, They would probably have to mark the toys up to $30 a 3 pack for them to make the profit they want. Oh wait they already have & still are paying cheap production costs & wages in China Yes I know it's business & that's the way it works..... making as much profit as you can. I don't look at them as any less crooked than anyone you all are claiming is a thief!
Deplorable factory conditions and the morality of shipping jobs overseas is a good discussion to have and one I agree with. It however does NOT change the fact that these items were stolen and that although you are claiming Mattel ripped you off, you have been a party to ripping THEM off.

Seriously. Start a thread about the factory conditions of Mattel and Hasbro and elsewhere and I'll cheer you on. In this particular thread however it is neither here nor there.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:31 am 
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Clayface wrote:
Oh so just because Mattel said they are stolen you believe them? Like they never lied to us before :roll: Just read through my posts and many on this forum & you'll see the past lies that Mattel has spewed out at us that were proven.

Well, the only way that they wouldn't be stolen is if they were being released on-card and sold directly from MattyCollector. Even if they were put in a big box to be melted down into scrap plastic, it doesn't mean that an employee taking one isn't stealing it. Much like how it's frowned upon for you to take home a pen that your secretary bought for your office's supply cabinet or print personal documents using your company's printer, paper, and toner.

Anyway, since they're coming from a random Chinese eBay account in droves...well, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...

But no. No, I'm sure that those kind factory supervisors gave these toys to their employees as a "thank you." Much like JLU Hal Jordan was given to the people who worked on the line in corporate.

And for what it's worth, I don't think you've "proven" any of their "lies."

Clayface wrote:
As I stated before, it's not like I am going to the Mattel factory, breaking in & stealing these toys. So I am not doing anything wrong.

But you're paying money for merchandise from China that you can pretty much assume have been lifted from the assembly line. That's like buying an iPad for $25 out of some guy's trunk in a dark alley. Most logical people would go into that situation knowing that it was hardly on the up-and-up. This is no different.

And if you happened to go buy that iPad, and a cop walked by and busted the transaction, you'd probably be getting arrested. For "not doing anything wrong."

Clayface wrote:
When I was a kid, My dad was good friends with a girl who worked at Kenner. She was pretty high up on the corporate ladder. She used to always bring me free toys of unreleased samples or had minor flaws that they felt they couldn't sell. The company gave them to employees to do what they wanted with them. Are you sure that's not the case with these JLU figures?

Assuming this is true, those were likely production samples that were shipped over from the factories. I'm willing to bet that people who work in corporate get lots of samples. And corporate for Mattel is in El Segundo, CA. These items are coming directly from China. Somehow, I don't think the seller is a Mattel employee.

Clayface wrote:
To Batfink & the keeping the money in the American economy? You are supporting a company like Mattel who could care less about keeping the money in the American economy or else they wouldn't have sweatshop factories in China making their toys for them. Greedy companies like mattel only care about the overall coin in their pocket. They could produce these in the US, but the production & what they would have to pay employees would make a huge cut into their profit. If these JLU figures were produced in the US, They would probably have to mark the toys up to $30 a 3 pack for them to make the profit they want.

Federal minimum wage here is $7.25/hour. In 2008, the average factory worker in China made $1.36/hour. That's five times less than the minimum in the States. If manufacturing were done here, only Mark Zuckerberg, the Steve Jobs estate, and Bill Gates would buy JLU three-packs.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:38 am 
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Look Clayface, conspiracy theories are great and all, but at the end of the day you have to look at the facts.

Facts

1) Mattel paid for the DC license--that costs money
2) Mattel pays for U.S. import and sales taxes on JLU--that costs money (and goes back to new schools, roads, medical care for soldiers, etc.)
3) Mattel pays for the salaries of the sculptors and employees to take the time to develop a successful action figure line -- that costs money
4) Mattel employs 28,000 people -- a good portion of that are U.S. jobs

What the Chinese sellers do

Mattel produces JLU at Chinese factories because it is cheaper than producing in America and U.S. consumers refuse to pay higher prices.

Mattel pays multiple Chinese factories to produce a certain amount of figures. Employees at the factory, if not the owners themselves, screw over Mattel by producing extra figures with money Mattel has given them, and selling them over the Internet and other venues like local street markets. The factory owners paid $0 in licensing costs, U.S. taxes, product development, etc. So they make money on top of the money they make from Mattel.

Repeat this strategy for every product made in China and sold in America.

And with the sheer volume of bootleg products coming out of China, unless each employee is able to take a warehouse of merchandise home with them, the "employees allowed take home product" theory is probably not the case.

What This Means to You

From 2001 to 2011, the Chinese have already taken over 77% of blue-collar manufacturing jobs in the U.S. Now they are coming for the white collar jobs as well when they steal intellectual property (i.e. DC Comics characters). That means Mattel will have to lay off sculptors, sacrifice figure quality, and generally cut corners to deal with rising energy costs and deceptive Chinese manufacturers.

But toys are the least of our worries. When they hack a company like Apple, or a drug research firm, they cost our economy billions.

The result is more economic hardship for every American family. People sometimes ask how do Wall Street traders, Banks, tobacco companies and other entities rationalize their actions? Greed, plain and simple.

Maybe you are right, and it's too late to keep the United States from tumbling into poverty while simultaneously making China even wealthier. But if you learn anything from those superheroes you love to collect, there might be something you can actually do about it. Maybe it's as simple as not buying a stolen product from a Chinese seller.

(See: http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 2&cid=1205)

(See: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/opini ... 2IaZhnqLVw)


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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:48 am 
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Batfink, I'm sure the default Mattel comment on these is to say "They are stolen." That does make sense to me but if that was the case I don't think they would be as prominent as they are. That's just how I see it.

All I know it's pretty sad that some of these Chinese pieces are better than some of the official released items. Metron is a good example. Also there were some complaints about Mirror Master's head from some people on another forum. Those should be the ones coming out of China earlier.

I had a company rep from Character Options give me an unreleased Cyberman, a variant which has yet to be released. He just grabbed it from a random desk and the office and gave it to me. That's still theft, it just looks nicer than these Chinese sellers. I was also told that if this item turned up on eBay, he'd shoot me.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheap JLU from Chinese eBay seller
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:22 pm 
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This is the most ridiculous thread we've had here in a while.


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